Changing Dissertation Advising: CHE article

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

https://www.chronicle.com/article/will-covid-finally-force-us-to-fix-our-broken-doctoral-advising
Interesting take on an old problem of the dissertation often having negative value for career paths outside of academia (even more so if opportunity cost is considered). Beside other standard advice it proposes to "Help doctoral students design their dissertation project to fit their preferred career path".

This raises several questions for me:
- are professors with a cursory knowledge of non-academic careers a good source of such advice
- what about fields where professors themselves (as opposed to departments) actually pay grad students to perform specific tasks
- can this lead to a tired system with only selected few programs offering "academia-ready" doctorates

[marshwiggle]

https://www.chronicle.com/article/will-covid-finally-force-us-to-fix-our-broken-doctoral-advising
Interesting take on an old problem of the dissertation often having negative value for career paths outside of academia (even more so if opportunity cost is considered). Beside other standard advice it proposes to "Help doctoral students design their dissertation project to fit their preferred career path".

This raises several questions for me:
- are professors with a cursory knowledge of non-academic careers a good source of such advice
- what about fields where professors themselves (as opposed to departments) actually pay grad students to perform specific tasks
- can this lead to a tired system with only selected few programs offering "academia-ready" doctorates

How do they suggest covid specifically has changed anything? Other than places that were already shaky finacially closing, the prospects that are dismal now were dismal a year ago (and for a long time prior to that.)

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

How do they suggest covid specifically has changed anything? Other than places that were already shaky finacially closing, the prospects that are dismal now were dismal a year ago (and for a long time prior to that.)

Something along the lines that covid showed that market had ample space to fall further from the already bad pre-covid times proving that "hold till market improves" strategy is wrong.
Quite disturbingly, author reports that he hears "professors advising graduate students to be patient for a year or two, and let the post-Covid economy right itself". For me it proves that posts like "Leave Now" by Karen Kelsky (extensively discussed in the dedicated thread) are still needed regardless of what we think about her motives/business.

[Hibush]

What, exactly, are we preparing our doctoral students to do?

And here's the answer: whatever they want. That has always been the answer, in fact.
No matter which path they choose, it's our job to help them.

To what extent are major advisors prepared to do this?
There are two aspects. First, are they willing to respect their advisee's choice? How many disrespect aspirations that don't lead to replicating the advisor's career?

Second, as Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert says, how many have help to offer, beyond validation of the choice?

I suspect, that the openness is greater in the more applied fields. Somebody getting a PhD in engineering, hospitality, information science, or public health is likely to have an advisor with a pretty broad view of good outcomes. Possibly with more connections to employers. Someone doing physical chemistry, medieval history, or pure math may have less support and helpful career information.

[mamselle]

I first read this as "Changing Dissertation Advisors."

M.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I agree that people in PhD programs should have a non-academic plan-B, but most academics won't be able to give much advice about how to achieve that plan.

[Caracal]

Quite disturbingly, author reports that he hears "professors advising graduate students to be patient for a year or two, and let the post-Covid economy right itself". For me it proves that posts like "Leave Now" by Karen Kelsky (extensively discussed in the dedicated thread) are still needed regardless of what we think about her motives/business.

Grad advisors aren't career counselors. Asking them to provide advice and help in getting jobs outside of their expertise doesn't make much sense. Now, advisors should be realistic about the market. They shouldn't discourage or shame students who are thinking about pursuing non academic paths. Unfortunately, that is something that happens. I always appreciated that my advisor often mentioned previous students of his who had taken jobs out of academia without any implication that they were failures.

I don't really understand why suggesting students be patient for a year or two would necessarily be bad advice. I think it would be important for advisors giving that advice to make it clear that they don't have a crystal ball and don't have any way of forecasting the long term effects of Covid on the market in their field or academia in general. If being patient means turning down other promising opportunities, or not thinking about alternative possible career paths, then that's a bad idea. However, it isn't like the non academic job market is going gangbusters right now either. If being patient means finding temporary solutions when permanent ones aren't available and keeping your options open rather than making hasty decisions in the middle of a crisis, that seems like pretty good advice.

[Caracal]

I agree that people in PhD programs should have a non-academic plan-B, but most academics won't be able to give much advice about how to achieve that plan.

Actual plan Bs aren't realistic for most people. Sure, some people have some skill that means they have some clear alternative career path, but most people don't. The important thing is that grad students are aware that plan A may not work out and they may have to figure something else out.

[marshwiggle]

I agree that people in PhD programs should have a non-academic plan-B, but most academics won't be able to give much advice about how to achieve that plan.

Actual plan Bs aren't realistic for most people. Sure, some people have some skill that means they have some clear alternative career path, but most people don't. The important thing is that grad students are aware that plan A may not work out and they may have to figure something else out.

Actually, in many STEM and professional programs, they are VERY realistic, since many, if not most, people will be getting jobs outside academia by choice. The problem is mainly for disciplines where there are few opportunities outside academia.

[Caracal]

I agree that people in PhD programs should have a non-academic plan-B, but most academics won't be able to give much advice about how to achieve that plan.

Actual plan Bs aren't realistic for most people. Sure, some people have some skill that means they have some clear alternative career path, but most people don't. The important thing is that grad students are aware that plan A may not work out and they may have to figure something else out.

Actually, in many STEM and professional programs, they are VERY realistic, since many, if not most, people will be getting jobs outside academia by choice. The problem is mainly for disciplines where there are few opportunities outside academia.

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities. I'm not sure what the relevance is though. Yes, a math PHD holder has a wider variety of jobs for which their training is likely to be directly relevant outside of academia. So?

[Cheerful]

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities.

Did they really need a PhD for those opportunities?  Too many people getting grad degrees and PhDs that add little value.  If they want to do it as a hobby and pay for it without loans, that's one thing.  But racking up debt for unnecessary degrees?

[Caracal]

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities.

Did they really need a PhD for those opportunities?  Too many people getting grad degrees and PhDs that add little value.  If they want to do it as a hobby and pay for it without loans, that's one thing.  But racking up debt for unnecessary degrees?

Very few people rack up much debt getting humanities grad degrees. Most programs are fully funded.

[ciao_yall]

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities.

Did they really need a PhD for those opportunities?  Too many people getting grad degrees and PhDs that add little value.  If they want to do it as a hobby and pay for it without loans, that's one thing.  But racking up debt for unnecessary degrees?

PhD's bring a lot of transferable skills, like research. Often they have taught classes so they are excellent facilitators and trainers in any topic.

[marshwiggle]

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities.

Did they really need a PhD for those opportunities?  Too many people getting grad degrees and PhDs that add little value.  If they want to do it as a hobby and pay for it without loans, that's one thing.  But racking up debt for unnecessary degrees?

PhD's bring a lot of transferable skills, like research. Often they have taught classes so they are excellent facilitators and trainers in any topic.

Yes, but in many disciplines there are jobs outside academia requiring graduate degrees (even PhDs) , which is what is relevant here.

[mamselle]

In history about half of PHDs get jobs outside of academia. Obviously there are plenty of opportunities.

Did they really need a PhD for those opportunities?  Too many people getting grad degrees and PhDs that add little value.  If they want to do it as a hobby and pay for it without loans, that's one thing.  But racking up debt for unnecessary degrees?

Very few people rack up much debt getting humanities grad degrees. Most programs are fully funded.

Ummmm......I forget. Are you in the humanities?

They might be fully funded for a couple of years but if your research is tiny, picky, overseas and contested, it's not a walk in the park financially.

M.