formality vs informality, aging?

[kaysixteen]

Forgive the wordy title to this thread, something that was provoked not only by my recent Interfolio experiences, but also by a correspondence I am engaging in with a man (whom I believe is probably around 30, IOW, like it or not, young enough to be my son) in Iowa.   This man saw a post I had placed onto a Christian school organization's website a few years' back, asking if anyone would be perhaps interested in establishing a new classical Christian school in the greater RI/ SE Mass. area.   He told me that he is part of a team of people, led by his pastor, who have decided that the Lord is calling them to move from Iowa to Providence, and try to plant a church there.   We discussed the prospects of maybe starting up some new Christian school around here (they will not be coming for 6-18 mos.) but then he moved to asking me a general question about what I thought he and his colleagues, none of whom appear to have any New England background or experience, needed to know about the differences between the midwest/ Southern culture his people are coming from (their church is Southern Baptist), and ours around here.   It got me to thinkin', and I spent about an hour writing an impromptu essay offering my thoughts on this question.   (I will actually send it to anyone who asks for it, or even, if there is expressed interest here, send it to the fora).  Amongst other thoughts, I told him that, unlike what is my perception of practice in the South and esp the Midwest, around here, one ought never to address a person who is more than just a few years older than oneself (unless you are family or the closest of intimate friends) by their first name, unless specifically invited to do so-- I noted that, due to the Blue state socially liberal politics that modern New England is noted for nationally, people from other parts of the country, esp. Red ones, tend to assume that New Englanders are really across the board liberal, whereas, well, that ain't true.   Our culture here remains more hierarchical than what one would see in Iowa, and much much more formal and reserved. (another related point I made to him was essentially to strongly discourage him from seeking converts for his church plant via cold-call door-to-door evangelism, which would go over here like the ebola virus).   I stand by my comments on reserved behavior and eschewing of unsolicited first-name bases, in general, around here, but....

I have been thinking on this more, largely as a result of having written that essay, and it does dawn on me that there has been an enormous change in formality and deference to/ respect for, elders, even around here, seen in people, especially Millennials and the ever increasing number of Gen Zers coming on up after them.   Really it is stunning to see young people assuming that they should address me by my first name.... but it is almost as stunning to see secretaries in doctor's offices, people writing business correspondence (email or print), calling me 'Kay', instead of 'Mr. Sixteen', or, even better, 'sir'.   Granted that I ain't 30 anymore, and things change in society all the time, but I am wondering 1) do you all see some of the same things I am seeing here, and, perhaps more cogently 2) do you yourselves feel yourselves aggrieved when you are first-named by service reps, mere acquaintances young enough to be your kid, etc.  (one might also add 3) do you ever try to do anything about it, if the answer to either 1) or 2) is 'yes', and, if so, have you had any success thereat?)

[lightning]

1) I'm not really paying attention that much to generational differences

2) no (but I'm one of those profs that invite any and all college students to address me by my first name)

3) N/A

[Hibush]

1) Yes. This has become a first-name world. I find this is true among scientists globally. I'm on a first-name basis even with Japanese scientists whom I have not yet met in person. I suspect I should address them as Sensei were we to meet in Japan. When addressing other faculty in formal written communications, especially when asking for something, I use Dr. or Prof. Otherwise it is first name from the get go.
2) To service reps, etc, I'm just a customer. There is no other hierarchy in the relationship. They don't know me, so it doesn't really matter what they say. They do not reveal their family names for safety reasons. I find that online chatbots are universally on a first name basis. How does one gauge the age difference when they are not even human? The AI behind them is surely good enough to accommodate such social expectations. 
3) My name is not pronounced correctly much of the time. In one-off encounters, I don't bother correcting the speaker. If there is an occasion for formal address, I try to set the norm by example, but never by "correcting."

[spork]

Not a direct response to any of your questions, but part of this is culturally dependent. In many parts of the world, John Smith is referred to as Mr. (or even Dr.) John. This is especially true of cultures with few surnames, such as Vietnam, where there might be six different Mr./Ms. Nguyens in the room but only one Nguyen Thi Phan. Some cultures don't really have surnames at all, and people's names get prefixed by an indicator of age/status. E.g., in Burmese, the use of U for men and Daw for women.

Anyway, yes, a shift toward greater informality/use of first names when addressing people in the USA. Personally I'm ok with it if I have already established some kind of connection/interaction. 

[apl68]

1.  I live in a rural area where the older forms of address you're talking about are still largely intact.  So I haven't experienced a lot of culture shock.  What has been startling to me is the way some have recently started addressing me the way one addresses elder elders--Mr./Mrs. First Name, as opposed to Mr./Mrs. Last Name.  Guess I'm starting to get old enough to be perceived as a true elder.


2.  I've very occasionally found myself somewhat annoyed by sales people and such who call me by my first name on the first contact.  But what's annoying is their overall pushiness, not the form of address.  Why should I get upset or annoyed by how somebody addresses me, unless it's clearly meant to be an insult?  In particular, why should I be annoyed if somebody younger than me or of ostensibly lower status addresses me informally?  The only reason I can see would be injured pride.  What have I got to be proud about?  We're always in the presence of God, and nobody has any business being proud in his presence.

[namazu]

Kay, have you ever spent any appreciable time in Iowa (or anywhere else in the South or Midwest)?  What is the basis for your beliefs about the cultural differences between the South, Midwest, and New England?

[Caracal]

Dr. is standard where I teach as an address to professors and I've never been interested in going against the grain. I went to a high school where teachers all went by their first name and I'd be perfectly happy to be addressed that way if it was standard. I mostly just would be uncomfortable asking for students to refer to me in a way that cut against the grain.

I really don't care in brief customer service interactions. I usually start with the formal address if I've never written to someone before and am writing them out of the blue. Most people I interact with respond to those messages by signing their first name at the bottom and I address subsequent emails accordingly. I do the same with emails to me.

[ergative]

It wouldn't at all surprise me if the younguns default to first-name more than us oldsters. But then, men don't put on a hat and tie to go out anymore, and women can wear makeup without being considered whores. Standards of formality and decorum change, and although the world is coming to an end, it's not because of that.

The only reason for me to get het up over terms of address is, as apl68 says, when it reflects some sort of insult. That's why we got up in arms over the Jill Biden 'kiddo' discourse, and that's why I hold the line on people who want to call me 'Ms Lastname'.  The former was absolutely intended as an insult, and the latter reflects insulting societal norms that women who are entitled to be addressed with honorifics still aren't entitled to be addressed by honorifics they've earned.

[spork]

Kay, have you ever spent any appreciable time in Iowa (or anywhere else in the South or Midwest)?  What is the basis for your beliefs about the cultural differences between the South, Midwest, and New England?

Related: what do these Southern Baptists from Iowa know about demographics and the market for private, religious-based primary/secondary ed in New England? It sounds like a fool's errand. The number of children in the region is declining. The use of "Well, Kay, what do you think about helping us set up a new school in your area?" makes the enterprise sound even more sketchy, unless you explicitly stated "Please call me Kay," which it doesn't sound like you did.

[wellfleet]

I am happy with being addressed by my first name everywhere, including by my military officer students. We stick with first names/nicknames across the board to avoid inviting service hierarchies into the classroom. Anyone who doesn't know me is likely to mispronounce my last name and/or use Mrs., both of which are as grating to me as being called "Kay" by a young stranger is to kaysixteen (who is almost exactly as old as I am).

I didn't live in Iowa for long, but I don't remember it as a haven for this kind of informality, especially in a small town. California, where I am now? Oh yes, and that's part of why I love it here.

Respect is calling people what they wish to be called, but I never assume I know what that is without asking.

[Volhiker78]

I've only lived and studied in the Midwest and South so I can't speak toward geographic differences.  I assume they exist especially in more rural parts of those regions. In the university, clearly things have gone toward first name basis everywhere.  When I was in grad school in the early 80s, no student nor staff member would presume to call a faculty by first name unless that person asked to be called that.  I don't remember that happening much. Now, grad students I work with routinely call me by my first name even on introduction.  I am fine with that.  I have an associate who I've worked with nearly ten years now. I asked her very early on to use my first name but she found that difficult until maybe 5 years ago. But she is unique in this regard.  No one calls me Mr. or Dr. now except very young kids.

[kaysixteen]

Random thoughts and responses:

1) WRT that guy in Iowa and his plan to potentially establish a Christian school in the RI area, when he and his folks get here to plant their church-- this guy is currently a teacher at a similar Christian school in IA and as such, he and his compadres know and love this particular strand of Christian ed ('classical Christian school'), and wish very much to be a part of such a school here.   They happened to see my longstanding ad on a classical Christian school website and decided to contact me to see what I knew and whether we might work together to establish such a school.   We still may well do so.

2) WRT my particular knowledge of Iowa, I have little but not none.  I actually had an interview with a Christian school there back in '97, and briefly was seeing a woman there then.   And I have lived extensively in areas of the country outside of N.E., including Buffalo, which is essentially the Midwest, Indiana, which is, and Florida.   I stand by my comments (the substance of which actually agree with what this fellow's church planting agency's New England missions coordinator has already told them-- he sent me the power point presentation they were shown)-- all the areas I have lived in are much much less formal than New England, and with much greater tendencies towards familiarity, first-namism, etc., even back in the 90s, and much much less personal reservedness.

3) There is no question that this change is in part generational across regions of the US (BTW, for fora members from those countries, what is it currently like in the UK and Canada?).  That said, given my age, background, and personal disposition, I ain't never gonna accept being first-named by students, who will have to get used to that.   And....

4) while I can see apl's opinion (he and I are after all coreligionists), and I deeply respect him, I do not think he is right.  Specifically, the Bible is pretty clear on how one should treat and respect elders, which emphatically is not like one's frat bros.  This really has little if anything to do with pride.

5) WRT a service rep, maybe I am old, and maybe it is the Massachusetts in me, a residuum of Puritan hierarchicalism, but I do not wish to be addressed by my first name by such folks.   Period.   Even when I am working a retail job, I would not presume to do this unless I have established a relationship with the customer, and if said customer be old enough to be my parent, it would be very hard to first-name them even if asked (though one  would have to obey such a request anyhow).   What exactly is it that has made millennials think it is appropriate to address customers old enough to be their parents by their first names?   (I am pretty sure I know the answer here but it would be interesting to hear some fora thoughts).

[ergative]

What exactly is it that has made millennials think it is appropriate to address customers old enough to be their parents by their first names?   (I am pretty sure I know the answer here but it would be interesting to hear some fora thoughts).

I'm an older millennial. When I was growing up, my mother had a wide variety of friends who were all first-named by her, and they invited me to first-name them. My friends' parents invited me to first-name them. My peers were all first-naming me; service reps had first-name name tags. My college and grad school professors invited me to first-name them. My peers at work all went by first names. I invite my students to first-name me (only insisting on 'Dr' if they insist on an honorific at all).

The reason I think it is appropriate to first-name people is because everyone, even in my parents' generation, has always told me to first-name them. I'm aware that this is not culturally accepted everywhere, but it doesn't strike me as at all bizarre to internalize the norms I've been brought up with as a reasonable standard of behavior.

[Caracal]

5) WRT a service rep, maybe I am old, and maybe it is the Massachusetts in me, a residuum of Puritan hierarchicalism, but I do not wish to be addressed by my first name by such folks.   Period.   Even when I am working a retail job, I would not presume to do this unless I have established a relationship with the customer, and if said customer be old enough to be my parent, it would be very hard to first-name them even if asked (though one  would have to obey such a request anyhow).   What exactly is it that has made millennials think it is appropriate to address customers old enough to be their parents by their first names?   

I'd be curious if most of them do. I grew up in a world where you called your friends parents by their first name and went to secondary schools where everyone, from the principal on down, went by first names. However, when I started working retail jobs I pretty naturally switched over to ma'am and sir. I didn't use them as a matter of course, to me it seems more awkward to use a form of address if you don't have to. However, there were various occasions when I needed to get someone's attention and there really aren't other options in American English that aren't abrasive.

I still ma'am and sir people in those kinds of contexts. The alternatives when someone is walking down the street and has dropped their keys are all kind of weird or abrasive in some form. Yelling "hey you," is pretty abrasive. (I wish American English had the all purpose "sorry" that people use in Ireland for defusing all sorts of interactions that could otherwise seem awkward or confrontational. If you just say sorry with the right intonation constantly you're allowed to bodily grab 40 guys while you push yourself through a crowded room.

[Puget]

What exactly is it that has made millennials think it is appropriate to address customers old enough to be their parents by their first names?   (I am pretty sure I know the answer here but it would be interesting to hear some fora thoughts).

I'm an older millennial. When I was growing up, my mother had a wide variety of friends who were all first-named by her, and they invited me to first-name them. My friends' parents invited me to first-name them. My peers were all first-naming me; service reps had first-name name tags. My college and grad school professors invited me to first-name them. My peers at work all went by first names. I invite my students to first-name me (only insisting on 'Dr' if they insist on an honorific at all).

The reason I think it is appropriate to first-name people is because everyone, even in my parents' generation, has always told me to first-name them. I'm aware that this is not culturally accepted everywhere, but it doesn't strike me as at all bizarre to internalize the norms I've been brought up with as a reasonable standard of behavior.

Same. Other than teachers, everyone in my life growing up used first names. This was in the pacific northwest, which I do think tends to be more informal and egalitarian than some other areas of the country.

I try to avoid ma'am and sir for strangers-- I find "excuse me" to work quite well for getting someone's attention without presuming their gender.