Trump's followers are now turning on him?

[Hegemony]

Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.

[marshwiggle]

Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.

My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.



*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.

[Kron3007]

Hell, Ivanka, it worked for Isabel Peron, at least briefly. Then there's Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, another Peronist. These are wives of. No reason a daughter of can't have a chance.

Peron is much closer to Trump than, say, Hitler, or even Mussolini. I presume the Democrats did not accuse Trump of being  a Peronist because that might have increased his popularity. :-)

Are we immune to Peronism? Or are we all Peronists?

I also don't know that enough people would have caught the reference. 

[mamselle]

Ah, there's Eliphaz.

I was postulating her as the second "Trump" in the fable.

She has indeed been bruited about for 2024...

   https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ivanka-trump-tweet-speculation-president-b1780592.html

M.

[mahagonny]

Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.

My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.



*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.

He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.

[apl68]

I hope the widespread disillusion with Trump causes people to think twice before making the same mistake with some other charismatic leader.

Doubtful. White evangelical Trump supporters probably think they came *so close* to holding state power that they will eagerly pray to false idols in the future.

I'm afraid in many cases you're right.  They by and large didn't vote for Trump because they had any admiration for him (Based on what I've seen up close, his noisy admirers who get all the attention have always been in the minority).  They did so out of stark fear of what would happen if somebody besides the Republican candidate won the presidency.  They're still afraid.  Frankly they've got good reason to be afraid.  We all do the way the world is going.  But they also profess to have a hope that doesn't have anything to do with who wins the presidential election.  Yet somehow they've become convinced that that's where their hope lies.  What distresses me is not simply that this or that political leader is a false god.  The political process itself has become an idol.

[kaysixteen]

apl is right about this fear, and I know many evangelicals personally who have it-- one normally pretty even-keeled woman just today told me she expected 'horrible' things from a Biden admin.    I challenged her specifically to tell me what those horrible things are, and, more specifically, on what evidence she adduces that these things are horrible and/or Biden seeks to impose 'em.   We will see what she says.   But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).


I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...

[Kron3007]

Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.

My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.



*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.

He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.

The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician.  So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks.  It is quite weird.

[apl68]

Over on Parler they were calling Trump GEOTUS, "God Emperor of the United States." When someone told me this, I thought the term must be being used ironically or something. But my friend, who keeps tabs on these things as part of her job, showed me enough postings to persuade me that at least some of them meant GEOTUS sincerely. I don't understand this practice of raising any human to the level of infallible prophet/savior, but above all it baffles me that Trump should appear to be the one. It's not like his lapsed promises and obfuscations and evasions are subtle or hidden. I wish people would stop proving themselves even more gullible than I suspected.

My impression is that the one thing that set Trump apart was that people felt he spoke plainly*, which is extremely rare for anyone in politics. Politicians generally are obsessed with speaking a lot and saying as little as possible, especially on any topic remotely controversial.



*And yes, he lied, made stuff up, and changed his mind frequently, but at least when he said something it seemed to be clear. So to voters who feel they're walking on eggshells (or are supposed to be) a leader who stomps around in hobnail boots is a refreshing change, even if he crushes the flowerbeds.

He's the first American politician I recall who tells lies that everyone, including those with no education, can see are lies. Like your ten year old kid might do, and then you say 'no, son, we don't do that.' The only disagreement was either he's gaslighting (clever and diabolical) or deluded (helpless to face unpleasant facts.) Third possibility: he tells you his inauguration crowd was the largest ever as part of a sales man strategy. You know it's not true, but it won't do you any good to disagree with him, because he'll just repeat it more often, and by putting the idea out there he appears to be keeping the upper hand by sheer force.
There were times he said what he meant plainly, and stuck to it, and it wasn't something egotistical or nutty (America needs to get out of the Iran pact). That part is true. Things like that might remind one of Ronald Reagan, who mostly said the same things over and over again and acted similar to how he spoke. (Tax cut) And something like that would appeal to conservatives who don't like him as a man, but hate just about everything the democrats want to do. Of course they have to either STFU in mixed company or be thick skinned enough to not mind being called racists.

The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician.  So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks.  It is quite weird.

I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty."  A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint.  Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.

[apl68]

apl is right about this fear, and I know many evangelicals personally who have it-- one normally pretty even-keeled woman just today told me she expected 'horrible' things from a Biden admin.    I challenged her specifically to tell me what those horrible things are, and, more specifically, on what evidence she adduces that these things are horrible and/or Biden seeks to impose 'em.   We will see what she says.   But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).


I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...

While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that.  Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.

[marshwiggle]

The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician.  So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks.  It is quite weird.

I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty."  A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint.  Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.

I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is uncensored.

But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).


I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...

While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that.  Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.

Their fears about identity politics are completely rational.

[Kron3007]

The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician.  So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks.  It is quite weird.

I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty."  A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint.  Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.

I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is uncensored.

But this reaction from many of my coreligionists is based largely on some combo of 1) irrational fear stoked by 40 years of propaganda about Democrats 2) tribal identity politics 3) doubling-down on support from Trump, lest you have to fess up to having been snookered (this is esp true wrt potentially acknowledging that GOP rhetoric about abortion is bogus, as the actual evidence on the ground should make clear).


I do not know what to do about these things, and, quite frankly, I am tiring of the fight, and tiring of the now mutated label of 'evangelical', too, though not yet ready to jettison it...

While they're often exaggerated, I don't think that the fears are always as irrational or illegitimate as all that.  Looking to a godless politician for help, instead of to God, is.

Their fears about identity politics are completely rational.

Tactlessness with honesty is not what he is.  He is tactless and dishonest, that is why is is odd that people would say he is the most honest politician.  I guess he is honest about some of his opinions that other politicians would never state even if they agree, and that is what they must be referring to, but it is hard to claim he is an honest man.

[mahagonny]

apl, K16: there absolutely is widespread fear and I don't know about evangelicals in particular but the cancel culture frightens a lot of Americans, and for good reason. And Trump opposed its encroaching into government regulations,  required 'sensitivity training' (look to your left and right for the 'microagressors' so we can shame them and drive them from the workplace) and expressed a thoughtful, 100% valid reason why, and everyone knew he meant it. And now that he's gone, there is indeed reason to worry. Actually pretty much on the same page as Pres. Obama on this, while much more serious.

'In a Fourth of July speech at Mount Rushmore, Trump said, "We want free and open debate, not speech codes and cancel culture. We embrace tolerance, not prejudice." Speaking of the left, he added that "one of their political weapons is 'cancel culture' — driving people from their jobs, shaming dissenters, and demanding total submission from anyone who disagrees. This is the very definition of totalitarianism, and it is completely alien to our culture and our values, and it has absolutely no place in the United States of America."'

source: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/americans-cancel-culture-377412

And I'm not flipping my position on his bizarre habit of telling obvious lies. That's still part of the enigma, but only one piece.

[marshwiggle]

The irony is that I have heard from some of his supporters that he is the most/only honest politician.  So, despite the blatant and constant lies, many still believe him because of how he speaks.  It is quite weird.

I think in part it's a confusion of frankness and lack of tact with "honesty."  A lot of times when people speak of being "honest" or "brutally honest" or "keeping it real" they're referring to a simple refusal to exercise any kind of verbal self restraint.  Unfortunately that has become very popular in today's society.

I think it's a direct response to political correctness where people feel they're constantly walikng on eggshells. That tactlessness and honesty is a breath of fresh air in that it is uncensored.

Tactlessness with honesty is not what he is.  He is tactless and dishonest, that is why is is odd that people would say he is the most honest politician.  I guess he is honest about some of his opinions that other politicians would never state even if they agree, and that is what they must be referring to, but it is hard to claim he is an honest man.

I think that's a valid point. The fascinating thing about all of the times when he said things which were glaringly, obviously not true, it seemed that people didn't care, and my sense was that the factual incorrectness was ignored because of the unfiltered emotions. People seemed to feel his motivations were more clear than what is common with politicians, who generally try to appear in sympathy with whoever they're speaking to at the moment, to the point that it all comes off as an act. (Which may be why wartime can make politicians more popular, since they can express real emotion and in a consistent direction.)

[Kron3007]

Yes, but I think he also used a lot of this to distract from other areas where he was completely deceitful.  For example, he acted as if he cares about the little people and that was his motivation for the tax cuts, but I think it is pretty clear who the biggest winners from that were. 

I found it interesting how he made so many people think he was one of them because of how he spoke when he was born with a silver spoon and has never faced anybody the same issues.  Ironic of him railing against the "elites".