The Art of Conversation

[cathwen]

This thread is making me remember this scene in Annie Hall:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TSvMx2wPI

[smallcleanrat]

In my experience, people like this fall into two categories. Some really just are self absorbed and don't actually care about other people. Others, just expect to be interrupted themselves and won't be offended by it, but actually are interested in the other person. I'm a little bit of the second myself (at least I hope so) As I've gotten older, I've been trying to become more thoughtful about other people's experiences of conversations. When I'm talking to someone who is a little more reserved or isn't comfortable interrupting, I try to rein myself in and make sure that I'm not cutting them off and dominating the conversation.

All that said, this is part of compatibility. There are plenty of perfectly nice people who you might not be interested in becoming closer to because you have a hard time talking to them. Of course, family members are a bit different...

Sure. Most people I've talked with who interrupt are receptive to being interrupted themselves. It took me a while, but I learned to use body language cues to indicate I want to say something. Actually speaking to interrupt someone is much harder for me to do, but I've learned to use speech when necessary. I find this somewhat stressful, but don't see it as a flaw in the other person's behavior.

But a subset of interrupters haven't responded even when I'm verbally saying, "wait...hold on a minute, please...can I say something real quick...?" I raise the volume of my voice, even wave my hands to try to get the other person to pay attention. They do not stop talking. It's like I'm invisible.

I used to interrupt when I'd get excited about something someone said, offer a comparison, and then forget they had the floor and continue nattering on.

Yeah, I think this part is important. I don't mind being interrupted nearly as much if the person finishes their thought and then follows with "So, anyway. You were saying....?" It's when interruptions lead to me never getting to finish what I was trying to say that I get frustrated.

This aspect of language is called pragmatics. Pragmatic skills differ across individuals (they are linked to both social cognition and executive function), and pragmatic rules differ across both situations and cultures (culture here can be at the level of the family up to the regional and national cultures). Certainly it can be a sign of rudeness or a power play, but not always--

With regard to pragmatics skills, some people, including those on the autism spectrum and with ADHD can have a lot of difficulty with this, absent other language problems. They may not read reactions to their interruptions, or be very focused on what they want to say and monopolize the conversation. Subtle hints are not helpful for them.

......

Thanks for posting this, Puget. I wasn't familiar with this as a concept. I can definitely empathize with being inadvertently inappropriate or unaware of particular social cues and expectations. Socializing has never been one of my strengths. Multiple people at various points in my life have told me they either assumed or suspected I was autistic. I never got evaluated or diagnosed for it, but for whatever reason I did have to put a lot of conscious effort into learning how to interact with other people.

For most of my interactions with people, interruptions are irritating but don't cause any real problems (because what is being talked about isn't that important). It hurts when close friends do it often, because it can feel like being used for sympathy and a listening ear when they need someone to talk to, with no value to them outside of this role.

The worst interrupters I deal with are my parents. I guess that's complicated by difficulty adjusting from parent-child dynamics to parent-adult offspring dynamics. They still seem to slip into the "Parents speak. Children listen." mindset, possibly without even realizing it.

The most frustrating thing is my parents frequently complain that I never share anything with them. But they accumulate so many topics they want to grill me over and "advise" me on that they rarely let me finish a single answer before they're anxious to move on.

I don't know why they can't make the connection between this behavior and knowing very little about me.

[mamselle]

That used to happen with my folks on weekly phone calls. I'd be mid-sentence, and my mom would say, "Oh, here's your dad..." and hand him the phone....and I'd be thinking, "...like, fine, do I start over now, or...keep going...or...what?"

I tried talking about it with them, and they sort of huffed and puffed up and said, "OK, sure..." but within a couple weeks they were back at it. After a couple tries, I just decided if that was the level of superficial interaction they wanted, then, fine, that would determine the relationship overall, because I didn't feel like fighting over it all the time, and they'd made it clear they thought I was being silly (or worse, along the lines you describe, obstreperous. As in, how does a child get the right to say how the interactions with her parents should go?)

Since this was tied to the larger issue, that to them, it was an affront somehow to see us as "all adults together," the power dynamics just stagnated and I just let it go. They'd showed so many signs over the years of being a bit brittle, not liking or valuing change, and opposing any kind of role-redefinitions in general, that I decided it was one of those cases where I wasn't going to be able to change them, or the situation, and I could only address how I dealt with things-as-they-were from my side.

I figured it was a potential loss to all three of us; adjusted, with regret, my expectations; and got on with things, seeking resonant relationships with older adults in other places and ways instead. I'd figure out before I called if there were any topics, issues, or bits of information I needed to prioritize, make sure to raise them first thing, and let them get on with it after that.

At times since, now they're both gone, I wonder how or if I could have done anything differently. But one can never fully, unilaterally define a relationship on one's own terms--those pesky other folks always have a say--so I know, having had to choose my battles, I had done what I could, and if they wanted the (to me) more shallow set of connections that resulted, then it was their loss, I'd tried, and there were other avenues and paths to follow on so many other levels that I'd do my best there and let the rest go.

Every story is different, but that's one similarity I see here.

M.

[smallcleanrat]

There's something I've been puzzling over for a while.

I know a few people who consistently twist critical feedback or requests into something far more extreme or obnoxious than what was actually said.

Examples:

'You have a tendency to cut me off mid-sentence when we're talking. I'd appreciate it if you would let me finish before jumping in.'
'So I should just keep my mouth shut until you give me permission to speak?'

A doctor advises someone to be more conscientious about nutrition because weight loss and reduced sugar intake could help alleviate some of the patient's health issues.
'I can't believe that quack wants me to starve myself just so I can match society's arbitrary standards for how much a person should weigh.'

A friend has been listening to a person complain about their spouse "getting upset over nothing."
'Well, I can understand why their reaction bothered you, but honestly I would have been upset too. I can see Spouse's point.'
'So Spouse is always right and I'm always wrong? I guess I'm just a horrible person who doesn't deserve Spouse, is that what you're saying?'

The question always in my mind is:

Are these things what the person is actually hearing? Or do they know full well they are straw-manning and are doing it deliberately to avoid addressing the real criticism?

Does anyone have strategies regarding how to react?

[Caracal]

There's something I've been puzzling over for a while.

I know a few people who consistently twist critical feedback or requests into something far more extreme or obnoxious than what was actually said.

Examples:

'You have a tendency to cut me off mid-sentence when we're talking. I'd appreciate it if you would let me finish before jumping in.'
'So I should just keep my mouth shut until you give me permission to speak?'

A doctor advises someone to be more conscientious about nutrition because weight loss and reduced sugar intake could help alleviate some of the patient's health issues.
'I can't believe that quack wants me to starve myself just so I can match society's arbitrary standards for how much a person should weigh.'

A friend has been listening to a person complain about their spouse "getting upset over nothing."
'Well, I can understand why their reaction bothered you, but honestly I would have been upset too. I can see Spouse's point.'
'So Spouse is always right and I'm always wrong? I guess I'm just a horrible person who doesn't deserve Spouse, is that what you're saying?'

The question always in my mind is:

Are these things what the person is actually hearing? Or do they know full well they are straw-manning and are doing it deliberately to avoid addressing the real criticism?

Does anyone have strategies regarding how to react?
[/quo
In some settings, you are supposed to just respond to the actual content of what someone said and avoid letting how you feel about that criticism come into play. In an academic setting, for example, if someone raises some concern or critiques some aspect of your work you really want to put aside any feelings of resentment or embarrassment. If you don't agree that the criticism is valid, you should say so and explain why. If you think its a fair point, but one you've tried to factor in, you should say that. If you haven't considered the problem, you should be open about that, and discuss how you could fix it. At least that's how it is supposed to work.

However, in lots of other settings, things get more complicated and people aren't going to approach critiques in the same way. Telling someone that you don't like the way they have conversations with you is going to be fraught. If someone said that to me, I would hear it as "You're a loudmouth and want to dominate conversation and you don't care about what I'm saying" and I'd probably be offended too. If you don't want someone to have that response, you have to really work to avoid it. For example, I'd probably respond better to "hey, I know this is sort of an annoying request, I've noticed that lots of people are comfortable having conversations where people break in in the middle of what they're saying and they do the same. I just get really thrown by it, I totally lose the thought I was having and then I don't feel comfortable trying to bring it back to what I was saying. I think its just something about the way I interact with people. When I've said this to people before, they've gotten offended, but I promise, I'm not saying you're some jerk who interrupts me, its just a thing about how my brain works. I totally understand if you sometimes forget and break in, but it really helps me out if I can say my thing first. Sorry, that's so awkward!"

I know that's a lot less direct, but its probably going to get better results if you do want to be friends with someone and have conversations that work for you.

[Myword]

They have no idea about strawman or other fallacies. Parents and others I know don't know what a fallacy is and do not care to know. If I told my parents, they wouldn't care or believe me anyway. They see nothing wrong with irrationality--it's called FEELINGS. They are right and I am wrong, no argument. It is irrational, of course, but so much conversation is, including mine sometimes.

Interrupting is a style of discussion. Sometimes the interrupter is bored and wants to talk about herself or anything else. I know people who always interrupt rudely and one friend who never does. It depends whether they stay on the subject.

[smallcleanrat]

"Telling someone that you don't like the way they have conversations with you is going to be fraught. If someone said that to me, I would hear it as "You're a loudmouth and want to dominate conversation and you don't care about what I'm saying" and I'd probably be offended too. If you don't want someone to have that response, you have to really work to avoid it."

Hi, Caracal. I shortened the request in my post's example to boil it down to its essence, but in practice I tend towards an approach much like what you describe.

(I am curious though, would you feel certain that the person was calling you a "loudmouth" or would that be a suspicion, with some room to consider that insulting you might not have been intended?)

I've been taught a few basic principles regarding requests that usually work pretty well to minimize conflict or offense:

1) Stick to facts and leave out judgments when describing the situation. (e.g. 'Yesterday, you didn't call to let me know you were going to be late.' NOT 'Yesterday, you were really rude.')

2) When talking about your feelings, keep it about yourself without placing blame on the other person. (e.g 'I felt hurt by that.' NOT 'You hurt me.')

3) Make requests, not demands, still keeping it about yourself. (e.g. 'It would really put me more at ease if you sent me a message so I know if you're going to be late.' NOT 'Stop being so inconsiderate. How hard is it to make a phone call?')

And I don't have a general habit of calling out everyone who's ever interrupted me in a conversation. This particular request is mostly an ongoing issue with my dad, and there are other factors that lead me to feel the request is worth making.

1) He is interrupting my answers to questions that he himself asked. So it's not like he's stopping me from prattling on about a topic he doesn't care about.

2) He usually asks 4-5 questions at a time, rapid-fire. If I start trying to answer the first question, I'm drowned out by questions 2-5.

I try to minimize my reaction to this, but I sometimes tense up when this happens or take a deep breath to gather my thoughts (because it's not easy keeping that many questions in mind at once). Tension may creep into my voice when I try to keep pace with his questions. It's largely just a reaction to feeling pressured.
I've told him it's hard for me to keep track of my answers, and I've asked him to wait for the answer to one question before moving to the next.

He still reads my reaction as disrespect: "Well, I'm sorry talking to me is such a chore. I don't mean to inconvenience you, Your Majesty."

(I've given up on requests to leave out the sarcasm. I've told him I'll listen to whatever he has to say, even if it's critical, and do my best to address anything he's concerned about. He's acknowledged I take constructive criticism well, but still feels a need to make those jabs.)

I've also asked my parents to leave out insults (e.g. "retard" "loser") emphasizing that I will do my best to listen to what they have to say and address their concerns; they don't need to use insults to get my attention. I'll get a response like "Oh, sorry if your precious little feelings got hurt. You poor thing. Tell me how else you want me to censor myself. What's PC enough for you? I guess I'm just a mean old bully and you're the helpless victim."

Similar results when I've asked them to refrain from getting physical when angry.

I could point out that they get pretty offended if anyone 1) cuts them off mid-sentence or 2) insults them. But I doubt it would help.

There's a parallel problem with politics and religion. I never volunteer my opinions with my family, or respond if they feel like having a rant, but I also won't lie if they directly demand an answer. I try to keep it brief and emphasize it's just my opinion, but simply saying "I don't agree with that." or "It just doesn't make sense to me personally." offends them.

"Oh, so all these people have no sense?"
(no...I said that particular view doesn't *make* sense *to me*)

"So you think you're smart enough to know the answers to everything?"
(not even close to anything I've ever said...)

"So you hate people who don't think like you?"
(if I say anything in regards to believing things like certain pseudoscientific "miracle" cures to be harmful and worth speaking out against)


If these things are what they honestly think I'm saying, maybe there's a way I can say things differently that won't push their buttons so much.

If this is a deliberate deflection tactic...I don't really know if there's much I can do to ease communication.

[Morden]

Hi SCR, I don't know that there is much you can do to ease conversation with your dad, but you can decide what isn't acceptable (for example, name calling, insults, or getting physical), and disengage if they go there. Protecting yourself is more important than being nice/respectful.

[mamselle]

Yeah, I'd say he is indeed being a bully, and start curtailing the amount of time you have for such discussions (including a decreased frequency of visits, shorter times in the house or car with the offender, and/or planned interruptive scheduled breaks to cut him off when he gets inappropriate like that...."Oh, sorry, gotta go, my cells need to be fed on time and I only have 10 min. to get over to the lab..." or something, would do.)

If that's the level of conversation you get from him, no wonder your self-esteem is so fragile.

I'd divorce him like I did my abusive husband for that line of chat.

You don't need that corrosive acid drip rotting out your soul.
M.

[Caracal]

"Telling someone that you don't like the way they have conversations with you is going to be fraught. If someone said that to me, I would hear it as "You're a loudmouth and want to dominate conversation and you don't care about what I'm saying" and I'd probably be offended too. If you don't want someone to have that response, you have to really work to avoid it."

Hi, Caracal. I shortened the request in my post's example to boil it down to its essence, but in practice I tend towards an approach much like what you describe.

(I am curious though, would you feel certain that the person was calling you a "loudmouth" or would that be a suspicion, with some room to consider that insulting you might not have been intended?)

I've been taught a few basic principles regarding requests that usually work pretty well to minimize conflict or offense:

1) Stick to facts and leave out judgments when describing the situation. (e.g. 'Yesterday, you didn't call to let me know you were going to be late.' NOT 'Yesterday, you were really rude.')

2) When talking about your feelings, keep it about yourself without placing blame on the other person. (e.g 'I felt hurt by that.' NOT 'You hurt me.')

3) Make requests, not demands, still keeping it about yourself. (e.g. 'It would really put me more at ease if you sent me a message so I know if you're going to be late.' NOT 'Stop being so inconsiderate. How hard is it to make a phone call?')

And I don't have a general habit of calling out everyone who's ever interrupted me in a conversation. This particular request is mostly an ongoing issue with my dad, and there are other factors that lead me to feel the request is worth making.

1) He is interrupting my answers to questions that he himself asked. So it's not like he's stopping me from prattling on about a topic he doesn't care about.

2) He usually asks 4-5 questions at a time, rapid-fire. If I start trying to answer the first question, I'm drowned out by questions 2-5.

I try to minimize my reaction to this, but I sometimes tense up when this happens or take a deep breath to gather my thoughts (because it's not easy keeping that many questions in mind at once). Tension may creep into my voice when I try to keep pace with his questions. It's largely just a reaction to feeling pressured.
I've told him it's hard for me to keep track of my answers, and I've asked him to wait for the answer to one question before moving to the next.

He still reads my reaction as disrespect: "Well, I'm sorry talking to me is such a chore. I don't mean to inconvenience you, Your Majesty."

(I've given up on requests to leave out the sarcasm. I've told him I'll listen to whatever he has to say, even if it's critical, and do my best to address anything he's concerned about. He's acknowledged I take constructive criticism well, but still feels a need to make those jabs.)

I've also asked my parents to leave out insults (e.g. "retard" "loser") emphasizing that I will do my best to listen to what they have to say and address their concerns; they don't need to use insults to get my attention. I'll get a response like "Oh, sorry if your precious little feelings got hurt. You poor thing. Tell me how else you want me to censor myself. What's PC enough for you? I guess I'm just a mean old bully and you're the helpless victim."

Similar results when I've asked them to refrain from getting physical when angry.

I could point out that they get pretty offended if anyone 1) cuts them off mid-sentence or 2) insults them. But I doubt it would help.

There's a parallel problem with politics and religion. I never volunteer my opinions with my family, or respond if they feel like having a rant, but I also won't lie if they directly demand an answer. I try to keep it brief and emphasize it's just my opinion, but simply saying "I don't agree with that." or "It just doesn't make sense to me personally." offends them.

"Oh, so all these people have no sense?"
(no...I said that particular view doesn't *make* sense *to me*)

"So you think you're smart enough to know the answers to everything?"
(not even close to anything I've ever said...)

"So you hate people who don't think like you?"
(if I say anything in regards to believing things like certain pseudoscientific "miracle" cures to be harmful and worth speaking out against)


If these things are what they honestly think I'm saying, maybe there's a way I can say things differently that won't push their buttons so much.

If this is a deliberate deflection tactic...I don't really know if there's much I can do to ease communication.

That context puts things in a very different light. To answer your question, it would be a knee-jerk reaction and a suspicion. If I'm being honest,  a lot of that reaction would come out of my own insecurities and anxieties about how I present myself. I want to be someone who listens to other people and is interested in them, but I am a fast talker and sometimes get carried away and I worry that I like talking about myself too much and don't give enough space to other people.

Really, however, with the longer explanation I don't think this stuff really applies. Its one thing if you're dealing with people who are well meaning but step on your toes sometimes. You're describing people who are abusive, certainly emotionally and perhaps physically as well. It sounds like interrupting is just part of a larger pattern of trying to control and belittle you.

[Hegemony]

SCR, if there is a chance you may be on the spectrum (as you report), I think there's an even bigger chance that your parents may be on the spectrum.

Combine that difficulty in understanding how conversational dynamics work with someone who doesn't want to know how they work, and you get the kind of dynamics you describe.

As for whether they believe all that about "So Spouse is always right and I'm always wrong?" etc. — yes, I think they do. In my experience, people like this tend to catastrophize, have heightened responses, and resist seeing nuances. They feel a strong emotional response to anything that seems like criticism, and their minds back up that strong emotional response with an interpretation that supports it. I've seen this in a friend of mine —

News reporter on TV: Scientists discovered today that cigarette smoking combined with eating pineapple over the course of twenty years produced a 3% heightened chance of MRSA infections...
Friend phoning her husband: I just heard on the news! If you smoke and you eat pineapple, it will give you a horrible infection! And that infection will kill you! It kills almost everyone who has it!  And my mother does both those things!  I can't believe my mother is going to die and she never listens to me and I'm sure she'll just ignore me about this ... [on the verge of tears]

(I am making that up about the news report findings, of course.) So what I see is heightened anxiety that is always scanning the vicinity for something that justifies that anxiety. And of course if you try to suggest that the trouble only comes after 20 years and is only a 3% increase, you get attacked for being dismissive of danger and feelings.  If that produces a bad reaction, you can imagine how much stronger the reaction is when they feel personally attacked.  And if they're on the spectrum, they a) probably have had people responding to them critically a good deal, which will make them more sensitive, b) probably have little insight into their own conversational habits, and so the fact that people criticize them for it will seem baffling and utterly unwarranted.

I think that unless people are actively willing to work on their conversational patterns, it's just knocking your head against the wall to get them to try. But there is also the saying "You teach people how to treat you" — which is not to say that you're responsible for people's bad behavior.  But re-training is possible, just as dogs and dolphin can be trained. It basically consists of deciding what behavior is not to be tolerated (for instance, insults), and when it happens, saying calmly, "I won't be insulted, so I'm going to hang up now," and doing so. Of course then they have an "extinction burst," or "Change back!" response, to see if they can get you to tolerate the old behavior again. So they pitch a huge fit, try umpteen strategies of meltdown and guilting and manipulation. For those of us who are used to trying to keep the peace at whatever cost to ourselves, at first those seem scary. But when it's clear that we will genuinely no longer stick around for the bad behavior, and will hang up calmly every time it happen, after a while they get with the program. That's a lot easier to make happen than trying to drive insight into their brains. There are just too many factors weighing against the development of insight.

[Caracal]

SCR, if there is a chance you may be on the spectrum (as you report), I think there's an even bigger chance that your parents may be on the spectrum.

I've also noticed that because of that it seems like you've learned to try to think about whether you are misunderstanding social cues or handling situations incorrectly. That's probably been a good strategy, but I think you might sometimes be so worried that you're doing things wrong that you don't put the blame where it belongs and that might result in you being slow to get out of bad situations.

[smallcleanrat]

Reviving thread to ask how people deal with conversations in which someone comes at you with outrage after something they read incompletely and/or incorrectly.

I'll paraphrase an illustrative example from the sitcom King of Queens.

Dad: Did you see the news? The Vice President resigned today.
Daughter: What? No he didn't.
Dad: I read it in the paper. He absolutely did.
Daughter: If the VP resigned why was there nothing about it in on the radio or on TV?
Dad: Maybe this guy had an inside scoop. I'll prove it to you.
*Dad roots around to find paper; holds it up*
Dad: See? It's right there in black and white: Vice President Resigns...Himself to Wooden Image.
*Dad pauses in confusion*
Dad: Obviously this is not the right paper.
*Dad resumes rooting around to find the article about the VP's resignation he is still certain exists.*

My folks do this a lot, especially my Dad. He has a habit of assuming he knows the story even if he only read the headline (and maybe the first paragraph) or only tuned in halfway through a radio or TV segment. As a result, he gets a lot of things wrong.

It's very awkward when he wants me to share in his outrage or at least make some kind of comment. It's not about getting a fact here and there wrong, it's about getting the main gist of the story completely wrong. Or sometimes it's an attack on the author's integrity:

Dad: Can you believe this guy?  Making such claims without a single citation?
*I skim through the article he's showing me*
Me: Um...He cites his sources in the third and fifth paragraphs, and again in a list at the bottom of the page.
Dad: Well, I didn't read that far.
Me: But how can you be certain he didn't mention something if you don't read the whole thing? Why assume that if the citations aren't in the first couple of paragraphs there are no citations at all?
Dad: *sigh* I don't know. Why do you have to be such a nitpicker?

He will sometimes get upset if I don't engage in the conversation, calling me a typical millennial, apathetic about the state of the world. I recently tried to explain the difficulty of having a discussion when the thing he's angry about didn't actually happen. It wasn't even reported to have happened, he just didn't read or listen carefully enough to get the actual story.

He blew up at me saying, "Oh, so unless I've researched every little detail, I can't open my mouth? Who the hell do you think you are? Fine, we'll do things your way. I won't talk to you ever again."

This kind of ties in to the last issue I posted about on this thread: I say one thing, the other person acts like I said something quite different (and more unreasonable than what I actually said).

Days later, when he was calmer, I asked if he honestly thought I was demanding he research every little detail (vs. what I actually said, which was essentially it's hard for me to engage in a conversation about a Man Bites Dog story when it's actually a Dog Bites Man story). I wasn't talking about little details at all.

At first: "Well, yes; that is what I heard you say. If that's not what you meant, then I forgive you." Followed by what seemed like deliberate attempts to pivot to a different topic.

Usually I would have let it go, but it was bugging me too much at this point. I asked how I could better communicate to avoid misunderstandings like that. Because I often think about my exact wording extensively before bringing up an awkward topic, specifically so as to avoid coming across as insulting or demanding. And I make a conscious effort to keep my tone of voice and facial expressions neutral. Where did communication break down?

At which point he says, "Ok, no. You didn't say that. You were actually pretty polite about it. I'll try not to be so hotheaded next time."

I left it there, but am I reading the situation wrong if I think this means he was lying about what he "heard" me say? Did he lie to me just to avoid addressing my real point?

My folks often complain that talking to me is "like talking to a wall." That they want to know how I think and feel about things, but I rarely tell them. I honestly don't know how to tell them a lot of things without triggering a fight.

[mamselle]

You've answered it right there.

You can't not trigger a fight because they're clearly always spoiling for a fight.

This isn't about you and what you can do about the situation.

It's about them and what they won't do about it.

Repeating the suggestions made above to a) cut off or radically reduce face time/exposure to them; b) don't invest any personal insights or energy into fixing what isn't yours to fix (it's with them); c) re-balance your time so it's spent with positively-focused people so you get used to being treated well.

You're tearing yourself up inside for no good reason.

It doesn't matter if they're your folks, they have to want to heal themselves, you can't do anything to heal them.

The most recent conversation sounds like a tiny bit of progress was made, so that's to the good; if it continues, that's even better, but it's also possible (as Hegemony noted) that they just capitulated for a moment, and will try to re-drive the battle flags through at the next opening.

Which they will make by constructing misunderstandings out of thin air.

Because that's what they do.

Love yourself.

M. 

[smallcleanrat]

I've gotten to a point where I only engage when I feel I can handle it. It doesn't really tear me up inside much anymore. It can still be frustrating, so I pick my battles so as not to get exhausted.

There was a bit of a transitional period during which threatening never to speak to me again was having less and less effect. When I was a kid and they said that, it felt like my whole world was collapsing. Now, if it actually happened, I'd be sad, but not devastated.

When I got harder to manipulate, they started to back off a bit and soften their approach somewhat. Maybe threatening to disown me was a bluff used to control me. Maybe they realized not having me in their lives is lonelier than they thought it would be. I don't know.

The fact that they have made some concessions is why I'm low-contact with them instead of no-contact. It's also why I'm willing to attempt an honest conversation once in a while to see if we can attempt to improve the relationship. And I grant my dad more chances than I do my mom because he has been more willing to make an effort (even if he still has anger issues).

I would never have attempted such a conversation with my mom, as it's probably a lost cause. But my dad is the one who always encouraged my educational pursuits, and taught be to value logic and skepticism. He always supported my interest in science and expressed pride as I matured and honed my ability to think critically. It's one of the things I'm most grateful for to him as a dad. So, it's baffling to me that he is so quick to jump to conclusions after merely skimming a headline, and that he's so defensive about being challenged.

He was also the parent who most helped me develop a sense of ethics and integrity. So, it's hard for me to reconcile this with the possibility that he is being consciously manipulative and dishonest with me.