Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[Hibush]

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11

That is a huge number for three million people.

[Wahoo Redux]

The argument is that people are not learning

making the government look like mama and papa to fix all things.

I understand that hyperbole is part of the way we discuss issues...but exaggeration is also a symptom of not really having anything to say----sometimes we make stuff up because we don't really have the facts to back up what we want to believe.

Just out of curiosity, who says "people are not learning?"

[marshwiggle]

More generally, many arguments on this board are like arguments from any declining industry. The difference is that the decline will never be terribly big, though the structure of what it offers may well change, and that the government is involved in its financing, making the government look like mama and papa to fix all things.

One angle that I don't think has come up regarding this is illustrated by forest management practices. Back in the 1950's or so, it became the practice to try and extinguish every forest fire as soon as possible. Over the next few decades, it became apparent that this wasn't a wise decision. The periodic burns took out dead wood, and allowed forests to regrow. By preventing that, forests became much more at risk of big fires because of the build-up of deadwood etc.

(I seem to recall something similar when dams were used to prevent all flooding. Eventually it became clear that small, more regular flooding helped to reduce silt build-up, etc. which was good for the rivers.)

In the case of institutions on the brink, the more that is done to prop up all of them, the more strain that places everywhere since the declining enrollment affects everyone, whereas getting rid of some with the poorest long term prospects will allow the redistribution of resources to benefit those remaining. (Like the forest fires, demographic trends make long term changes inevitable, like it or not.)

[apl68]

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11

That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.

[marshwiggle]

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11

That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.

Ontario  has a population of 13 million . It has an area of 1 million sq. km.
Arkansas has a population of 3 million. It has an area of 135 thousand sq. km.

Ontario has 23 universities listed, for 4 x the population with 6x the area. (Granted, the populated area is much smaller than the total.) Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

[mamselle]

But mindsets for families where higher education is not the norm makes even short distances away from home seem huge and daunting.

I saw that in Ohio--not Columbus, where I was raised, but not far outside it, in the towns near the larger farmland areas, SE and SW of town, where one might stop on the way down to camp in, say, Lancaster or Logan, and the storeowner would talk about the huge risk their graduating senior was taking, going to the nearby community college (not even the larger OSU campus an hour away), they hoped they'd be OK, and all.

The kid might actually have been fine about it, but I also remember those cloudy little feelings of uncertainty and fear of the unknown in high school, even having been raised in the city, when trying something new, different, or unusual within my own circle of acquaintances. Thankfully, my family was mostly supportive, and after a few trials, errors, and successes, it became less daunting, but distance for bright kids who've grown up in limited circumstances does have a dampening effect on their courage, and their parents'.

If one wants an educated voting populace in more rural areas, one needs more available higher education, whatever the cost.

M.

[apl68]

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that in this case.  Even a downsized HSU would fill an important niche in the region.  Arkansas is not one of those states that has a college campus every ten miles.

A colleague in Arkansas thought it was more like every 20 miles, though. Just about every county. Neither efficient nor matched to demand.

I like to look at numbers, so here we go for publics in AR.

CCs - 22
4 yr "general"- 11

That is a huge number for three million people.

But spread over an area the size of England.  And most in the northern half of the state.  Place-bound students still often have limited choices as it is.  In my town they have to go 40 miles to attend any sort of four-year college.  Losing Henderson would produce a major regional gap.

Ontario  has a population of 13 million . It has an area of 1 million sq. km.
Arkansas has a population of 3 million. It has an area of 135 thousand sq. km.

Ontario has 23 universities listed, for 4 x the population with 6x the area. (Granted, the populated area is much smaller than the total.) Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The absolute certainty that I would have my concern dismissed in this manner--though I was expecting it to be from somebody using one of the huge western U.S. states as an example--nearly made me decide not to be even bother expressing it.  But I stand by what I said.  Having one of our state's regional colleges close would be a significant loss to the region.  It would be a great loss if a combination of mismanagement, poor policy decisions, etc. led to its closure.  There's the reasons that mamselle cites above, there's the major economic and cultural loss to the region that would be involved, there are other reasons.

But by all means, dismiss my concerns.  What do I know?  I only grew up in this state, attended college here, and have spent most of my adult life living and working here.  How could I possibly have any reasonable idea or opinion regarding what our state or region needs?

[Wahoo Redux]

Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

[marshwiggle]

Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted. If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment. Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)

[apl68]

Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

These are all factors. 

I'm well aware that by the standards of vast western states and Canadian provinces a 40-mile commute doesn't seem like much.  The culture and infrastructure in these places tend to reflect that.  Elsewhere a 40-mile commute is a more daunting proposition.  I'm sorry upon reflection that I let myself get impolite above, but it would be nice to see a greater recognition that Arkansas isn't Ontario, which isn't Ohio, which isn't New York State, which isn't etc. 

States' systems of higher education don't take the forms that they do for no reason.  It's likely that changing circumstances and demographics will lead to campus closures in some places.  Whether that would actually be a good outcome is another matter.  It's easy for people who've never been there and never experienced the circumstances of potential students in the region  and are looking down from on high to pick and choose which campuses are worthy of continued support, and which are "obviously" no longer viable or needed and ought to be sacrificed on the altar of the Great God Efficiency.  When you get to know the local situation, these decisions aren't so simple.

[Wahoo Redux]

Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted.

Bingo. 

So we should support our programs, no matter where they are, so everyone has a chance to study them at a reasonable cost.  That does not seem on the table.

And you seemed to miss the part about being "poor" and maybe not having the money or the cultural & financial literacy to get to a college 40 miles away.  I think you missed that.

If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment.

Bingo.

But that does not stop people from closing programs. 

And actually, Marshy, the "career option" majors are the ones that are surviving, although it looks like we will lose our nursing program.  That scares me.

And it is okay if we look at education as more than just "relevance to employment."

Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

Man, you are on a run!  Bingo!

(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)

So?  What should we do?  Everyone should have a chance at education.  No one forces the students to go to college.  From my experience, it is mostly parents who badger unwilling students into going to college. 

If you can change the modes of cultural attitudes and class prejudice, go for it.

I think the market is taking care of this anyway.

[apl68]

Still, the fact that traveling within the state is a big deal is strange given that the states are much smaller than most Canadian provinces. And 40 miles (60 km) would be considered close by Canadian standards. Slightly over 1/2 hour drive is far? Lots of students commute farther than that.

The state in question tends to be very poor.  This affects all sorts of things.  Take the students in our town.  If school or commuting is going to conflict with employment, childcare, eldercare, cost a reliable vehicle and gasoline, or require payment for room and board, forget it.

But this creates a huge downward spiral. If people are only going to choose places that are close to home, and relatively small, then that means that program choice is going to be very restricted. If students only have the choice of fairly "generic" programs, then by definition their studies are not likely to map very closely to their career options. So, it's going to reinforce the idea that higher education doesn't really have much relevance to employment. Thus the people considering the narrowest range of options because they aren't sure if it's worth it are most likely, because of that choice, to be disappointed with the results, confirming their earlier suspicions.

(My point has always been that recruiting students who aren't academically strong and aren't highly motivated because they don't know what they want to do is a recipe for making people question the value of higher education. If undecided students are encouraged to work or do something else for a while until they decide that the really want to attend, and know why they want to attend, then the attrition rate should be much lower and the satisfaction rate much higher, regardless of what programs they take.)

I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.

[Wahoo Redux]

I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.

I've said the same things but not so well as apl.

[marshwiggle]

So we should support our programs, no matter where they are, so everyone has a chance to study them at a reasonable cost.  That does not seem on the table.

And actually, Marshy, the "career option" majors are the ones that are surviving, although it looks like we will lose our nursing program.  That scares me.

Nursing is a good illustration of the challenge. Programs like that are very expensive and need a lot of infrastructure to operate. In addition to being able to recruit faculty to those areas, programs need labs and in addition they need access to hospitals with capacity for all of the practicums the students need. The last one is beyond what the university itself can provide. (Only a big institution is going to have its own self-contained teaching hospital, so placements are going to have to be in community hospitals.)

And it is okay if we look at education as more than just "relevance to employment."

Pardon me. I should have said "relevance to income". As you have noted earlier, like it or not, that's a big deal in peoples' minds. (And most people will equate that with the actual employment choices available.)

I'd be happy to hear of rural areas where very few people pursuing higher education (or their parents) are concerned about whether or not this will affect their future earnings.

[Hibush]

I don't think you're taking into account here the fact that even poor and sparsely populated areas still need people who have college educations.  They still need doctors, nurses, people who can work in IT, and so forth.  Quite a few of those people that we have with such educations have gone to that nearby four-year school.  Having a relatively nearby college campus made a real difference in their ability to get an education and use that education in their community.  These schools are still filling local needs.  Shutting them down would make fulfilling those needs more difficult.  Which could contribute to a downward spiral of its own.  A decision by a state to let a regional college campus fail could look an awful lot like a decision to write off that region as unworthy of further support that other regions of the state enjoy.

I've said the same things but not so well as apl.

The loss of unviable school is indeed a loss of opportunity in the region and its capacity.

The downward spiral is well on its way if people are not attending those schools, which is what we are seeing. While students technically have the ability (i.e the school is available to them) and their attendance would be beneficial to society, too few actually enroll to keep the institutions viable or to meet the communities' needs. The students are (mostly) attending larger schools or not going at all.

It's the same deal in the Northeast with both public and private schools. In recent years, the draw from rural communities in the Northeast is also affected by the anti-intellectual wave that labels colleges as indoctrination camps and such. That phenomenon reduces local political support for the education (if not for the jobs at the school).

While opportunity is lost, maintaining lots of unused opportunity indefinitely is not going to have support from those who have to pay for it.