Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[Scout]

Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

[ciao_yall]

Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

My sister was an anthropology major who worked for Teach For America after college. Then, a few science classes and MCAT prep, and she went to Harvard Medical School and is now a pediatrician.

[FishProf]

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

All true, and this is the reason why there is no such thing as a Pre-Med major.

[mythbuster]

At my compass point institution, we are in the process of creating a similar BS in Natural Sciences. It will be the "bail out" major for students who can successfully complete most, but not all, of the courses for a full degree in either Biology or Chemistry. In Biology, our biggest upper level hurdle is Genetics. The combination of statistics and critical thinking skills needed to succeed in Genetics seems to be kryptonite to our students. They all leave Genetics until senior year, hence the need for the "bail out" alternative.
  My guess is that this new major has a similar function, with the goal of improving the overall degree completion rate.

[FishProf]

We used to have a bail-out natural sciences degree.  It was a disaster.

As Chemistry and Biology developed into full-fledged programs aligned with national standards, the NS program withered to a random assortment of gen-ed level semi-sciency courses that served no one. 

[spork]

Will anyone who enrolls in the new BS in Natural Sciences from this school, ahem, actually be able to use said degree to get into med school?

If they meet medical school prereqs and admissions criteria, the specific major does not matter. I had friends who were premed who were art majors, French majors, psych majors etc. They needed to do well and complete the proper premed coursework. I don't know enough about this major to speak to it directly, but there is no reason a solid interdisciplinary science major can't prep students for med school and other health programs.

My sister was an anthropology major who worked for Teach For America after college. Then, a few science classes and MCAT prep, and she went to Harvard Medical School and is now a pediatrician.

And your sister went to Henderson State, or a school just like it.

[kaysixteen]

I get that kids need not major in any one specific thing in order to get into med school, obviously.   But there is a big diff between senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major because he did not wish to expose himself to the harder things in a bio or chem major.  And this is much worse if said watered-down science major is a newly created obvious cash grab at a fifth rate state school. 

Academics should stridently resist the creation of these sorts of show-me-the-Benjamins programs that delude students, offer (usually) little hope of real professional employment, and further glut markets.  I recall the brouhaha several years back when a middling private uni in the Midwest, long in possession of a BA program in classics, and a MA geared for hs Latin teachers, decided to establish a PhD program.   They bought lots of books for the uni library related to this agenda, but otherwise more or less this was just a cash AND prestige grab, and the students they were going to sucker into enrolling in it were just not going to end up as college classics professors.

[FishProf]

I get that kids need not major in any one specific thing in order to get into med school, obviously.   But there is a big diff between senior majoring in English whilst acing the required premed track, vs majoring in some dumbed-down 'natural science' major because he did not wish to expose himself to the harder things in a bio or chem major. 

That's a weird dichotomy to raise.  The English major wasn't exposed to the harder things in a bio or chem major either.

[secundem_artem]

I'd offer that an English major up to their neck in James Joyce, Don DeLillo and other assorted existentialist po-mo writers is not having an easier time than somebody in the hard sciences pre-med track.  Probably spends fewer clock hours in a classroom or a lab, but I don't think a solid education in the humanities is a whole lot easier than a solid education in the hard sciences.  The last honors course I taught had ~ 6 books.  Most of the professional track students took one look at the reading list and dropped the course immediately.  And from what Mrs Artem (BA in Latin) tells me, 6 books in a course ain't nuthin'.  Try a book a week for 15 weeks.

[jimbogumbo]

I don't think an English major is easier at all. I do think without the more difficult chem courses (that are a sequence) they'd have a hard time getting admitted to med school.

Aside: a book a week (for 11 weeks) was standard for years in my undergraduate college's freshman course that ALL students were required to take.

[spork]

University of Holy Cross (LA).

The usual story: 50% decrease in FTE undergraduate enrollment since pre-2008 recession, persistent deficits on a $30 million operating budget except when it gets > $5 million in annual contributions or sells part of its endowment.

Like Henderson State, its students don't go to med school, regardless of major. Anyone capable of going to med school attends a different university.

[apl68]

I don't think an English major is easier at all. I do think without the more difficult chem courses (that are a sequence) they'd have a hard time getting admitted to med school.

Aside: a book a week (for 11 weeks) was standard for years in my undergraduate college's freshman course that ALL students were required to take.

That's quite a bit more assigned reading than any undergrad course I had to take.  I did have advanced courses where I had enough research work to probably require something like that overall for the semester.  Then I went to grad school and was reading 3-5 books per week in just one course.

[kaysixteen]

And the English major who aces those premed sequence courses can demonstrate that he has not only aced the premed courses (which will of course not include courses that would be necessary for professional biologists or chemists, but just for MDs), but also completed a hard, objective major that gives skills that would be very useful for any working doc to have, whereas the student who takes the watered-down semi-science major, well, not so much.  And it would be different if that 'natural science' major were at Harvard, but Henderson St ain't Harvard. 

One question, would this HSU 'natural sciences' major even be enough to get the alum certified to teach k12 sci in Arkansas schools?

[Istiblennius]

Someone upthread brought up an issue that is a huge one for our students - the sequencing of STEM classes.

For example, to get into Biochem you have to have the Ochem sequence, each of which requires a C to get into the next one, to get into Ochem you have to have to do the same with the Gen Chem sequence, to get into Gen Chem you have to take Algebra.

If you get even a little out of step with these sequences, it can slow you down by years.

From talking with my colleagues in some of our other disciplines, students do not face these prereq and sequencing challenges. Students also have far more choices with electives instead of proceeding lockstep through a bunch of requirements.

So I don't think the coursework itself is mentally harder, depending on the student interest and motivation, but the pathway is harder to navigate and has more opportunities to fall off and fewer opportunities to get back on. Some of the alternate STEM degrees I have seen are less a cash grab or dumbed down path but more of a flexible path that allows students more choice and different on and off ramps so that they still can earn a degree when they experience barriers in the path.

[Langue_doc]

The King's College in Manhattan

The Second Life of a Christian College in Manhattan Nears Its End
The King's College, which draws students from around the country to Manhattan, has not been able to recover from enrollment and financial losses.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/17/nyregion/kings-college-manhattan-possible-closing.html