Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[polly_mer]

For those who haven't seen it, http://recessionreality.blogspot.com/ has a daily round up of news articles related to colleges experiencing dire financial straits here in the time of covid.


To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).

[TreadingLife]

Just in case we forgot, there isn't a limit to the number of times you can be kicked in the teeth.

https://dailyfreepress.com/2020/07/25/wheelock-takes-brunt-of-bu-layoffs/

For context, BU recently raised $1.85 Billion for its endowment. I guess they had no choice *but* to cut people first to preserve the institution. <insert deep sarcasm and disgust>

Wheelock was asked by the University to reduce its budget by 15 percent, which approximates to around $2.2 million.

I mean, who can find *that* kind of money! <insert more sarcasm and disgust>

One-third of the budget cuts were allowed to be "one-time" cuts, which may be filled again at a later date, while the remaining two-thirds of cuts must remain permanent.

We always knew this "merger" was a land/building grab and nothing more, but it is especially galling to make it that apparent during a pandemic, as BU sits on a total endowment of $2.3 billion.

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/campaign-for-boston-university-faq/

[mamselle]

Just in case we forgot, there isn't a limit to the number of times you can be kicked in the teeth.

https://dailyfreepress.com/2020/07/25/wheelock-takes-brunt-of-bu-layoffs/

For context, BU recently raised $1.85 Billion for its endowment. I guess they had no choice *but* to cut people first to preserve the institution. <insert deep sarcasm and disgust>

Wheelock was asked by the University to reduce its budget by 15 percent, which approximates to around $2.2 million.

I mean, who can find *that* kind of money! <insert more sarcasm and disgust>

One-third of the budget cuts were allowed to be "one-time" cuts, which may be filled again at a later date, while the remaining two-thirds of cuts must remain permanent.

We always knew this "merger" was a land/building grab and nothing more, but it is especially galling to make it that apparent during a pandemic, as BU sits on a total endowment of $2.3 billion.

http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/campaign-for-boston-university-faq/

Kick-boxing as a form of dental care is a specialty in some places.

M.

[Wahoo Redux]

To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).

Firstly, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Secondly, I can't think of anybody who's said either of these things.

[quasihumanist]

Quasihumanist: if you are saying half your math and physics majors are "failing" I have to question who your institution is recruiting.

Probably not half, but we have a substantial portion of graduating math majors who still take 2 minutes to process the difference between "All swans are not white." and "Not all swans are white."

Ask a graduating math major to actually come up with a non-trivial proof involving a little manipulation of concepts they understand and 90% of them draw a blank.

Frankly, I don't think we should have graduating math majors who can't get a single point on the Putnam(*), but half the students in the country who take it - and this is a very self-selected group - get a zero.

(*) 12 very nonstandard questions - but most require no more knowledge than first-year calculus and two or three only require high-school knowledge - scored out of 10 each.  6 hours on the first Saturday in December every year.

[dismalist]

Actually seen on a sweatshirt of engineering students, somewhere:

As GPA goes to zero, Major goes to Political Science. :-)

[kaysixteen]

Obviously, as I said on the other current thread, we should be trying to fix these legions of problems associated with public k12 ed in this country, but we ain't gonna be able to do so without money, which has to come from somewhere.   Borrowing it would be a cynical solution that passes the buck to our grandchildren, assuming they're not all dead by then.  No, we just have to tax to do it, and those taxes which have to be raised are the taxes of the rich people and corporations that have benefited enormously, and out-sizedly, from the economy in this country for decades, and have during that time been woefully undertaxed.   This is true, whether the Libertarians like it or not. 

Now the problem of what to do about students who come to bad colleges underprepared for college level work is another one, which will continue to at least some extent even if/ after we get our k12 funding and other issues settled.  Sadly, some of the solution to this problem will have to be to tell some students to do other things with their lives rather than go to college, and to create viable life economic options for them to be able to do so.

[polly_mer]

To return to the discussion at hand, the harsh cold truth is reality doesn't care about the exact words. Being unable to teach exactly the same class at an R1 and some other institution is one indication of the gap in student preparation, which is likely to persist through graduation.

Licensure for fields where knowledge matters is one way to ensure that standards are met.  However, there's a huge conflict between letting people try ('you can't know that this particular individual won't pull off the miracle') and filtering for good preparation to have a huge probability of success absent unforeseeable accidents (i.e.,  very low attrition rate).

Firstly, I'm not sure what you are saying.

Secondly, I can't think of anybody who's said either of these things.

I have a long answer that will have to wait until I have time Saturday. 

However, right now I'm reading https://www.chronicle.com/package/broken-ladder-higher-eds-role-in-social-mobility/ and you might want to read those articles as well if you're serious about answering the question of why don't 'we' do more to serve the people who often choose the predatory for-profits.

[Wahoo Redux]

I have a long answer that will have to wait until I have time Saturday. 

Don't bother, Polly.  There's no point.

[jimbogumbo]

quasihumanist wrote:

I also think that ABET and AACSB accreditation just give a floor that's not good enough if most of your students are basically at the floor.  I teach a couple classes in the CS program (I'm a mathematician), and while the graduates know the content they're supposed to, too many of them just don't have the problem solving creativity and imagination needed to work in the field - and they aren't getting there any time soon because their schooling has consistently neglected to develop it for 13 if not 17 years.

(*) Some of the people we fail we fail by giving them degrees.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more. To push an analogy, I see a four story building with a basement. AACSB and ABET represent the ceiling of the first story. The first floor and basement are where many of our US Business and Engineering programs are located. The "good" ones are on the third and fourth stories, with even some in the Penthouse.

[Wahoo Redux]

An elegy for Marygrove College.

[Ruralguy]

OK, any employer who needs a programmer will (or should!) test their skills before hiring. I kind of thought that was standard, but maybe things have changed.

That is to say, all of the ABET approval in  the world doesn't matter if :

1. an employer tests them for sufficient skills anyway
2. an employer basically does the opposite: just goes by referrals by friends, and never really tests them, and figures the bad ones will sort out of the business eventually.

I haven't gone by "degrees" because I am assuming we're talking about a fairly uniform group that has 4 year relevant degree, decent if not stunning grades, etc.

[secundem_artem]

I'm in one of those fields that saw a substantial growth in the number of programs (doubled in the past 20 years) and also has a national board exam before licensure. 

Pass rates in the 70% range are not unusual at these newer schools and a few are in the 60% range. (Artem U is over 90% and is higher than the R01 flagship down the road).

Given what our graduates do for a living, people should be grateful as hell that there is a national board exam and angry as hell at the schools taking money from kids who should never have been there in the first place.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in the next 5 years opened a school.  The results are now coming clear.

[dismalist]

I'm in one of those fields that saw a substantial growth in the number of programs (doubled in the past 20 years) and also has a national board exam before licensure. 

Pass rates in the 70% range are not unusual at these newer schools and a few are in the 60% range. (Artem U is over 90% and is higher than the R01 flagship down the road).

Given what our graduates do for a living, people should be grateful as hell that there is a national board exam and angry as hell at the schools taking money from kids who should never have been there in the first place.  Every busted ass bible college afraid it could not make payroll in the next 5 years opened a school.  The results are now coming clear.

Such exams, [especially if there's more than one :-)], in general, keep accreditation on its toes or even substitute for it. I don't see anything wrong with a 70% or lower pass rate. Many, many individuals are better off.

Difficulty is to know ahead of time who can pass. To some extent, students have to play the odds. 'Twould behoove the national examiners to make clear to students what is needed, so that students can make an informed choice about gambling.

I am so sanguine only where there are exams of such kind.

[jimbogumbo]

OK, any employer who needs a programmer will (or should!) test their skills before hiring. I kind of thought that was standard, but maybe things have changed.

That is to say, all of the ABET approval in  the world doesn't matter if :

1. an employer tests them for sufficient skills anyway
2. an employer basically does the opposite: just goes by referrals by friends, and never really tests them, and figures the bad ones will sort out of the business eventually.

I haven't gone by "degrees" because I am assuming we're talking about a fairly uniform group that has 4 year relevant degree, decent if not stunning grades, etc.

Ruralguy: the ABET and AACSB thing actually is a deal in many hiring decisions, and certainly if a student wants to get a masters at some point. Most Engineering and Business positions for students with these degrees is not the type an employer does any of the sort of testing you describe.  Decisions instead are made based on the degree, type of institution, and of course the individual's merit.