Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[kaysixteen]

1) Marshy is right about the specific needs of dealing with quantitative problems, something I have less interest or experience in, and does not generally occur in the areas of life, professional and personal, that are common to me.   'Liberal arts-style critical thinking' is pretty much what ruralguy notes, but I would add in a specific component of verbal reasoning, acquired through significant reading, writing, and seminar-style instruction, something that, like it or not, you do not get in engineering school.

2) Good point about how I would talk to that 33yo newbie classics PhD, 20 years younger than me.   I would have to encourage him to do various things to decide quickly whether a tt job would be coming his way, not give this more than a year or two, and right away get to work looking for alternative professional work.   Truth be said, if teaching is his forte, I would encourage him to get state teacher certification and/ or an MAT (preferably in another related field, since his PhD would already cover him for classics-related courses).   If he is primarily interested in research/ writing, I would encourage him to try to branch out collaterally into careers where his PhD could be useful, and before age discrimination and long-term professional underemployment substantially attenuate his chances.  One more thing, and this works even better if he is still actively on-site/ in close contact, with his doctoral advisor, I would press his doctoral dept to give him real help, and be annoying abou tit if necessary, not worrying about hurting feelings, if needed.    But of course, that 33yo PhD newbie is already at least somewhat stuck-- I would be even more eager to get these conversations started with the 28yo grad students, who really could make some real changes that would help them professionally.   Sadly, this has become  even more necessary because, like it or not, classics PhD depts (and methinks they are not alone) have shown no responsibility to limit new PhD production.

[marshwiggle]

2) Good point about how I would talk to that 33yo newbie classics PhD, 20 years younger than me.   I would have to encourage him to do various things to decide quickly whether a tt job would be coming his way, not give this more than a year or two, and right away get to work looking for alternative professional work.   Truth be said, if teaching is his forte, I would encourage him to get state teacher certification and/ or an MAT (preferably in another related field, since his PhD would already cover him for classics-related courses).   If he is primarily interested in research/ writing, I would encourage him to try to branch out collaterally into careers where his PhD could be useful, and before age discrimination and long-term professional underemployment substantially attenuate his chances.  One more thing, and this works even better if he is still actively on-site/ in close contact, with his doctoral advisor, I would press his doctoral dept to give him real help, and be annoying about it if necessary, not worrying about hurting feelings, if needed.  

How is this different than what you did? From what you've said, it wasn't a lack of effort on your part that was the problem, so doubling down on that isn't likely to be any more effective.

As for the supervisor, if s/he is out of touch on the current job market, how probable is it that the department can provide any "real help"?

But of course, that 33yo PhD newbie is already at least somewhat stuck-- I would be even more eager to get these conversations started with the 28yo grad students, who really could make some real changes that would help them professionally.   Sadly, this has become  even more necessary because, like it or not, classics PhD depts (and methinks they are not alone) have shown no responsibility to limit new PhD production.

OK, so what would you tell the grad students who really want to make this a career?

[apl68]

Continuing random thoughts and responses;

1) There is no question that nowadays a new MLS with no actual library work experience cannot get a librarian job-- there would be too much competition.   This, however, was not always the case.   My library school days were coequal with the calendar year 2000-- I started in Jan. and took max course loads for all three semesters, including the intense summer school semester, largely because, just having finished up my PhD, I was running low on money and on patience for long-time additional school, and wanted to get through the MLS asap in order to actually get a job.   My MLS advisor, a 60-ish guy who was chair of the dept., thought this was fine, as did all the other professors I had.   None ever advised me to slow up and try to get some sort of paraprofessional library work during library school, or even mentioned that it was a good idea to do so (some of my fellow MLS students were so working, but most of these people were certainly not going to lib school ft, and many were on track to take several years to earn a degree which really could have been earned in a year).   Further, no professor ever offered to assist me even in obtaining an internship, let alone suggested I needed to do so, and the advisor/ chair, when he interviewed me for admission, thought this plan was just fine, and when I asked what he thought my chance of getting a professional job on completion was, he replied 'virtually 100% as long as you are willing to relocate'.   Indeed, the dept also offered essentially no assistance to its completing students and recent alumni, in terms of looking for that first job, and actually piggybacked on a business school professional advisor in the uni's career counseling office, to assist library students in preparing resumes, covers, interview strategies, etc.-- she, by her own admission, knew nothing of libraries, and gave much rather useless, business-oriented advice that was inappropriate to libraries (though I did not find that out till later).  Obviously, I have mentioned before that my lis school was essentially a diploma mill that actually lost its ALA accreditation 5 years after I graduated, , but I bring up this trip down memory lane to point out that the rules really were different in the 20th century, and it just won't do to hold people retroactively accountable for not having done what no one ever told them to do, esp when the thing in question really was just not done in the era in question.

A library career isn't necessarily out of the question even now.  It's not too unusual for people to get into it later in life.  You could still potentially find paraprofessional employment and start working your way up again.  Granted, even that may take persistence, if you're in an area where hiring is very tight.  Even if it does take time, though, and even if you find yourself stuck in full-time paraprofessional work for years on end, it's got to be better than working for Wal Mart.

The thing is, you have to decide that you want to do it.  And show potential library employers that you do.  We're like any other employers.  We want people who are 1) Trustworthy and reliable  2) Get along well with members of the public and other staff members  3) Are humble and willing to learn.  Don't sell yourself short--education and critical thinking skills are a definite plus in the library world.  You've got something worthwhile to offer in that respect.  But those first three qualities are of paramount importance.

Kay, you remind me very much of myself twenty-odd years ago when I washed out of that PhD program.  I was very embittered and disillusioned.  I questioned why God ever allowed this to happen to me, after everything I'd done for him (Boy, what a foolish attitude that is to have!). 

The library gig that I got at that time (I'd been working with the campus library as a student assistant, and was able to get on full time) was not at all what I'd wanted for myself.  But I stuck with it for years.  I did it to the best of my ability, and was willing to take on more responsibilities.  When I was reassigned for a time to other duties I didn't like as much, I did them without a lot of complaining.  I did two and a half years of part-time library school, had to drop out short of a degree for personal reasons (Long story), and then had to do the degree all over again when I found that my earlier credits had aged out.

All of which is to say that I know something about following a long, slow, frustrating path.  Some of us just have to take that kind of path.  It doesn't seem fair.  In some ways it really isn't.  But it's the reality that some of us have to face in life.  For those of us who profess to be Christians, it's God's way of teaching us to get over ourselves and accept that it's not all about us.  That we can't expect to control what happens to us, only what we do with it.  I guess some of us just take longer to learn that lesson.  It's certainly taken me a long time. 

I can tell you one thing, though--the more I've learned that lesson, to trust God and be content in whatever life situation I've been placed in, the more rewarding life has become.  Not because God has eventually let me gain everything I ever wanted in life.  That hasn't happened, and clearly never will.  It's because I've learned that following God with contentment is great gain.  Seems like somebody once said that in the New Testament....

I'm rooting for you and praying for you in this, kay.

[kaysixteen]

1) WRT what to tell that 28yo grad student today, who claims extreme eagerness to go into academia as a classicist, I would tell him things like this a) I had the same issues25 years ago, but was operating with very much different advice owing to poor information, and the rules have changed-- those rules will not, moreover, be changing back b) no matter how bright you are, where you are going to grad school, how wonderful you think you are, etc., you cannot alter reality.   You must, therefore, take proactive steps pdq, in order to avoid endemic underemployment.   b) then we could talk about what those steps should be, elaborating on what I said above.    It is true that if his advisors are 60+ Ivy Leaguers who remain studiedly clueless, this will be a hard sell for me, but if placed into a position of actually being able to advise such a student, I suppose I had better at least try.

2) WRT that 33yo newbie PhD, I get that it would already be pretty late in the game for him to adjust to these realities, but better late than never.

3) apl, thanks very much for answering.   I deeply respect you and your views, but they are wrong here.   Put simply, this is not 20 years ago, and I am not 33 anymore.   I am not able to 'work my way up', from such a position, starting now.   But that is perhaps a cop-out response-- what is more honest is that I do not want and will not take a paraprofessional position, *even if someone would give me one, which I highly doubt.   Low Walmart-style wages aside, paraprofessional employment for me, an educated professional MLS, PhD holder, with years of experience both in various teaching roles and in libraries, is and would be inappropriate.   But quite frankly, I would not be the best fit for such a job in any case-- it would be very difficult for me to submit to the direction and oversight of people who should not be in such a position over me, and the paraprofessional tasks that would be assigned to me would be insulting, and professionally stifling.   This may well sound haughty and unchristian, but it would be violating the 9th commandment for me to tell you differently, or to tell a library interviewer differently as well.   For a comparison, I remember a phone interview I had back in 2014, for a position teaching Latin at a Christian school in a southern state.   The headmaster, about my age, had no background with Latin, so he asked the current Latin teacher to join us on the interview-- the young man was around 25, had graduated from college 2 years earlier and gotten the job at the school, and was now set to leave, in order to go to grad school himself.   This boy asked me a question regarding my familiarity with high school Latin textbook X, something I had vaguely heard of and certainly had no familiarity with, which I said.   The kid then adopted a very negative attitude towards me for the rest of the interview, and, of course, I never even received the courtesy of a rejection email from the school.   I remember, after hanging up the phone that night, thinking directly, 'what the hell is this boy doing interviewing me?  (and, of course, why did his boss think it was appropriate for him to do so, as well?)'   I decided not to write the guy back after it had become clear I was not wanted, but even now I do not like the experience.  This is almost certainly how I would react to be put into a position of serving as a paraprofessional in more or less any library.  Like it or not.   Now I see your point, wrt the embitterment-- I am not really angry with God, but I confess to being very angry with people who lied to me, largely for their own financial reasons (they wanted tuition paying qualified students).   Now my library school was justly stripped of its ALA accreditation, of course, but most other schools, not only in that era but today, are still likely in the position of telling impressionable kids and (at least somewhat) older adults looking for career alternatives, things that are not right, not true, not likely to come to pass, etc., and, as well, not fulfilling any sense of duty to those students, in terms of giving them any assistance in actually making professional use of those degrees.   My own experience notwithstanding, it is really not wrong for me to decry these behaviors.   

[Vkw10]

Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10

[marshwiggle]

2) WRT that 33yo newbie PhD, I get that it would already be pretty late in the game for him to adjust to these realities, but better late than never.

This strikes me as incredibly defeatist and close-minded. There are many people on here who have made major life changes a lot later than this and thrived. If completing a PhD basically sets a person's life course in stone, no-one should ever encourage anyone they care about to even consider one.

[TreadingLife]

The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors

[Hibush]

Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10

This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week that he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

[apl68]

The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors

Their list of programs to be cut includes many of the usual suspects, like European languages that aren't Spanish and classical civilization.  But it also includes some ostensibly trendy fields like Latin American and Caribbean studies.  Those fields are experiencing a shake-out too.

At this point there can't be more than a handful of German and Italian programs left anywhere.

[Hibush]

The University of Vermont cuts 12 majors and 11 minors "that can no longer be supported without jeopardizing programs with more robust enrollment." The Board of Trustees, the university president and provost all expect the college to "move forward on this plan expeditiously. There is no other way forward for [the college] to balance its budget."

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/12/04/u-vermont-cut-12-majors-11-minors

Their list of programs to be cut includes many of the usual suspects, like European languages that aren't Spanish and classical civilization.  But it also includes some ostensibly trendy fields like Latin American and Caribbean studies.  Those fields are experiencing a shake-out too.

At this point there can't be more than a handful of German and Italian programs left anywhere.

The oddball major in the list is geology. In looking at the College Scorecard yesterday, I noticed that geology majors had remakably low salaries relative to other science majors. In the past, geologists were hired in the mining industry and made good money. Perhaps those salary numbers are turning rock-heads toward other majors?

[apl68]

Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10

This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week that he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

They get points for pointing out the brutal reality that they have a lot less money now due to loss of revenues and COVID-related expenses, and that what they have to cut is mostly salaries.  If the money's not there to keep everybody on, it's just not there.  It does seem like it would be wiser to eliminate some programs altogether than to keep on a bunch of gutted programs.

Nugget of wisdom from the end of the notice:  "The future begins now."  What an insight!

[kaysixteen]

The news from UVM really depresses me.   I actually took my classics MA there, which was an excellent, old-style classics program, one that used to be the foundation of the undergrad experience at the school.   And I took a grad German seminar too, and had the professor serve on my MA thesis defense committee.    UVM used to be essentially a SLAC, albeit with the 'State Agricultural College' appended to it-- now what is to become of it?   Of course, the state of VT itself is hardly a growth area....

[Hibush]

The news from UVM really depresses me.   I actually took my classics MA there, which was an excellent, old-style classics program, one that used to be the foundation of the undergrad experience at the school.   And I took a grad German seminar too, and had the professor serve on my MA thesis defense committee.    UVM used to be essentially a SLAC, albeit with the 'State Agricultural College' appended to it-- now what is to become of it?   Of course, the state of VT itself is hardly a growth area....

Vermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

The university is much larger than what the state can support, so ⅔ of the undergrads are from out of state (tuition $44 thousand) and tuition is 3/4 of the budget. Only ~10% ($70 million) of the budget comes from the state appropriation. Financially, it resembles a large (10 thousand undergrad) tuition-dependent private college.

The graduate program is only one thousand total, and I can't tell whether that is self-supporting.

Demand for the classic education, whether old-style or new and funky, in Vermont has been dropping. As we've been logging on this thread, smaller institutions in Vermont have been closing or threatened with closing. UVM needs to have a clear picture of who will be paying for their services ten years hence, and how much.

[Puget]

Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10

This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week that he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

Not to minimize the budget problems there, but they have over 1000 TT/T faculty members, so cutting 50 (through retirements) is hardly creating "Potemkin departments".

Although the pandemic has made things worse, the problems with the CU system long predate it, and result largely from the severe under-funding of higher ed by the state (last I checked CU Boulder was getting less than 5% of its budget from the state). This in turn is largely a result of a state budget with very little flexibility in it due to the people in their infinite past wisdom passing a series of initiatives that (a) limited the ability to raise revenue and save it for a rainy day, and (b) pre-committing big %s of the budget to specific uses (K-12, roads, etc.) which were all worthy causes in themselves but add up to most of the budget collectively.

[dr_codex]

Not dire financial straits, but doesn't seem to fit elsewhere.

Letter about budget at UC Boulder College of Arts & Sciences:
http://view.communications.cu.edu/?qs=3224887bffcee47c024592e1ac5bddb6dcebe85e337a8cab26b631423cdc14970fbadf6386134f6d0d3067b0935dd188299c27a50fae2c4cfa17e833a664c587cec4af6305595157cf4c8da689e8ef10

This is even more concerning than Vermont's move

"The University of Colorado at Boulder's College of Arts and Sciences dean said this week that he hopes to replace 50 tenured and tenure-track faculty members with 25 instructors who will teach more and earn less. His goal is to build more flexibility into the college's post-COVID-19 budget."

It is better to eliminate unsupportable programs than to create Potemkin departments. If you are a school like CU Boulder, you have to do it right or don't' do it at all.

Not to minimize the budget problems there, but they have over 1000 TT/T faculty members, so cutting 50 (through retirements) is hardly creating "Potemkin departments".

Although the pandemic has made things worse, the problems with the CU system long predate it, and result largely from the severe under-funding of higher ed by the state (last I checked CU Boulder was getting less than 5% of its budget from the state). This in turn is largely a result of a state budget with very little flexibility in it due to the people in their infinite past wisdom passing a series of initiatives that (a) limited the ability to raise revenue and save it for a rainy day, and (b) pre-committing big %s of the budget to specific uses (K-12, roads, etc.) which were all worthy causes in themselves but add up to most of the budget collectively.

Why not replace James White with 3 part-time Deans for the College of Arts and Science? Hourly wages, with contracts limited to 30 hours/week, so no overtime, no retirement matching or pension contribution, and no healthcare benefits? I bet you'd save a bundle, and get a lot more productivity.

Never waste a good pandemic.