Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[FishProf]

Some places in the east still teach Middle School Latin.

Boston Latin is still a going concern.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."

[Hibush]

Interesting to hear that high school German is still a thing in the U.S.  I suppose it must be mostly in certain states.  In our state foreign language classes in high school are widespread, but I've never heard of anything other than Spanish and French--and not a whole lot of French--being taught in high school in-state.  It was a revelation to me in the 1990s to learn that Latin was still being taught in states further to the east.

My Western US high school still offers both French and German. In my day, those were taught by native speakers. Spanish, of course, since it predates English in much of the West and is common today. Japanese and Mandarin are popular high-school choices as the languages of international commerce and local culture. There is talk that the district is overdue to add Hindi. Latin? I don't think so.

[spork]

The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."

Why is it that the faculty who claim that study in the humanities is essential to the development of students' "critical thinking skills" always exhibit an inability to engage in "critical thinking" in these articles?

[marshwiggle]

The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

It is disturbing to see the logic that micromajors are to be preserved for the sake of the faculty, even though they result in a paltry upper level course choice further limiting career prospects for the graduates.

From the article.
On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."

Why is it that the faculty who claim that study in the humanities is essential to the development of students' "critical thinking skills" always exhibit an inability to engage in "critical thinking" in these articles?

Probably for the same reason that you get something like this

Marshy is right about the specific needs of dealing with quantitative problems, something I have less interest or experience in, and does not generally occur in the areas of life, professional and personal, that are common to me.   

in a discussion about the challenges of getting rewarding, decent-paying employment with a humanities PhD.

[sonoamused]

2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

[apl68]

2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

Have you observed a problem with disheartened academics heading into MLS programs?  Obviously it happens--I was a failed PhD student who got the MLS myself.  But only after I had spent several years actually working in a library and decided that I wanted to make a career of it.  I recall most fellow MLS students being either working library employees like me or young (ish) BA holders who figured they'd give libraries a shot.

[PScientist]

On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."


I have made an argument similar to this in defense of our physics major before; we only graduate a few majors per year.  The truth is that, if we had to teach only first-year classes to non-majors only, I would probably quit and find something else to do, and I suspect my colleagues would as well.  Hiring and retaining reasonably qualified faculty can be hard at small underfunded institutions in fields where faculty tend to have skills that enable them to work elsewhere.

(However, the comment about career prospects doesn't apply; although we have a minimal set of upper-division physics courses, our graduates have done fine, along a wide range of career paths.)

[spork]

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story

"If the masses can't rise above denial, that doesn't mean denial is right."

[marshwiggle]

https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean/annotations-u-vermont-story

"If the masses can't rise above denial, that doesn't mean denial is right."

"In theory, it's conceivable that high-minded civic virtue would sweep the land, and nobody would participate out of self-interest.  But that's just not how the world works.  Those who have benefited from existing imbalances -- or who believe they have -- can be counted on to defend them. "

[polly_mer]

2) The MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.  As such, it wasn't a good plan B at any point in the past several decades for someone who isn't already in the system doing the work.  Again, they are looking for someone with experience, not just someone who took the classes.

Not us. We're the place where Librarians get some experience and/or complete a second Master's, and move on up and out after a few years. People who come with experience just don't buy furniture and move out and up more quickly.

I'll concede that the rapid closure of other institutions is changing the market, but I sit on a lot of Library hiring committees, and it hasn't changed that much. Big caveat: We haven't hired anybody, for anything, since COVID, so who knows what it will look like this summer.

I know, I know. Anecdotes aren't data, and one small college isn't a great measure of the market. But there's usually some somewheres that are the bottom rung, and it's worth figuring out where they are, especially for people in jobs where mobility is expected.

he MLS route is similar to being an academic; it's one of the standard fallbacks along with teaching high school.    - wow.  I was going to stay out of this fight, but as one of those MLS holders, this is insulting and in the last 15-20 years, increasingly wrong.   -- Matter of fact, us with MLS degrees (often not called that anymore) try to bounce those dis-heartened academics out of our programs because they have outdated ideas about what it means to be librarians, especially in academia; and if they want to continue on, they usually find themselves with a PhD in library science, and thus, pretty much unemployable as a librarian.

My point was not that most librarians and high school teachers are failed academics.  My point, like yours, is would-be academics who choose high school teaching or MLS/MIS/library studies as academic enough to be almost like being college faculty instead of as worthy endeavors in their own right tend to not do very well in obtaining and keeping those HS teaching or library positions.  The librarians and high school teachers bounce those folks quickly as not being serious about becoming acculturated, having the necessary mindset to succeed, and learning the necessary skills.  However, I still see many, many would-be academics who state their fall-back plan is to teach high school or be in libraries/museums as they wait out the market to become a college professor.


The problem is exactly as kaysixteen found: he has a degree that has no bearing on the current needs of being a librarian.  I was surprised to read that kaysixteen was still applying for librarian positions when he didn't seem to know what's standardly available at libraries based on responses to answers he was given or what was required of current librarians to maintain those services.  Being a librarian at this point without fabulous quantitative reasoning skills and a big dollop of tech savvy is a non-starter anywhere I've been interacting with librarians for the past 20 years.

[Hibush]

On geology, Bailly said there's a reason it has relatively few majors: it teaches "hundreds and hundreds of students from other majors, including environmental sciences." So why have a geology department? "Because the folks who teach it need a home that is really their home. They are geologists. That's their professional organization, their disciplinary springboard for all the amazing interdisciplinary research and teaching they do."


I have made an argument similar to this in defense of our physics major before; we only graduate a few majors per year.  The truth is that, if we had to teach only first-year classes to non-majors only, I would probably quit and find something else to do, and I suspect my colleagues would as well.  Hiring and retaining reasonably qualified faculty can be hard at small underfunded institutions in fields where faculty tend to have skills that enable them to work elsewhere.

(However, the comment about career prospects doesn't apply; although we have a minimal set of upper-division physics courses, our graduates have done fine, along a wide range of career paths.)

If a school had a need for a good intro physics course to serve other majors, but not a physics major, what is the soundest solution? Would it make sense to have a physicist as an NTT lecturer in a different science department to fill that teaching need? It would need to be permanent and competitively compensated to be competitive. What else would the position need to recruit and retain someone who would teach those courses at the same level as intro courses taught by the TT faculty?

[polly_mer]

The Vermont faculty insist that they can somehow stop the cuts: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/12/07/u-vermont-faculty-members-pledge-fight-planned-cuts-liberal-arts

The classics professor's argument is particularly ineffective when so many of us attended institutions that didn't have a classics department and yet learned philosophy, math, sciences, and logic while becoming responsible citizens supporting the idea of a republic.

The article also notes that "Incentive-based budgeting, the model that determines college funding, allocates money based on the number of credit hours enrolled in by students in a college." 

IBB is very effective if your strategic goal is to have each department focus on maximizing student credit hours by not requiring any courses outside the major and by offering lots of fun non-major courses with easy As. Most departments resist to some degree because they have principles about a good education. The humanities faculty at UVM may have chosen an unsustainable proportion of principle vs practicality.

The humanities faculty at most institutions are fighting the wrong fight entirely and will lose in most of the foreseeable scenarios because a liberal arts education is not the end all, be all of tertiary education.

Most of the world does not require general education distribution requirements at the tertiary level.  Elementary and secondary education is where citizens learn enough literature, history, basic philosophy, basic math, and basic science to get by.  Tertiary education is about specializing in one field to become proficient.  Oxford undergrad degrees can be three years because they don't have the extra year of general education.  Anyone want to assert that an Oxford degree is not really a university education? 



Thus, all the assertions about the need for general education by the humanities folks rapidly come up against the realities of:

* a general education system of "Pick I of K courses from each of N lists" generally does not result in the goals asserted for a liberal arts education, especially when the math doesn't get up to a whole year of calculus (and through ordinary differential equations is necessary for a true liberal arts education), the science doesn't use calculus or calculus-based probability through the ODEs, and the courses that should be writing intensive with a lot of feedback are taught by overwhelmed faculty who have only one or two writing assignments of a pitiful number of pages with almost no revision for ideas.  If a liberal arts education is truly the goal for all university education, then the current system at most colleges and universities in the US cannot reach that goal.

* force-marching underprepared and/or undermotivated humans through a random series of courses does not result in an educated populace ready to apply those lessons out in the world.  If it did, then the US K-12 system would have much, much better results and again the need for college-level general education would be zero, just as it is in Europe.  Thus, again, the current observable system cannot reach the stated goals of having general education requirements.

* having the majority of general education courses being primarily taught by armies of contingent faculty undermines all assertions on how important general education is at many institutions.  When something is important, that's where the resources go in a healthy institution.  When something is only important enough that it has to exist in some minimal way to check the box for when the auditors come through, then the institution can skimp in that area.

* having so many people in college who aren't prepared and aren't really doing the activities that result in a solid tertiary education instead of just a lot of schooling undermines the assertion that every college/university currently in existence should be saved in nearly its current form as a benefit to society.  If the standards for enrolling in college were raised, then far fewer faculty would be needed to meet that demand and those faculty would spend their time on academic pursuits instead of trying to set up courses that can't be failed by the students-in-name-only.

My European graduate-educated colleagues don't understand the lengthy discussions on how to get students to do what they need to do to succeed.  University students are assumed to be motivated enough to want to take the reasonable activities to learn or they will be weeded out as not currently university material.  The idea that people who don't want to learn should be in college and supported as though they were elementary schoolers who have to be taught how to study is completely absent from their academic worlds.


In summary, if the humanities people were really teaching the courses that everyone needs to be a good citizen and develop critical thinking skills, then there wouldn't be so many of us college-educated folks who could apply our BS detectors and point out how the assertions fail spectacularly at the many, many US institutions where the humanities faculty are basically adjunct to the real endeavors of the institution, even if individuals are currently holding tenured positions, and how other countries have fine tertiary education without anyone having a liberal arts education.

[fourhats]

Vermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

Despite popular belief, UVM is a private, not public or "state" university. It has attracted heavily from outside of Vermont, and had been in recent years getting lots of applicants from around the country. They do get some state funding, but also probably affected the bottom line, but it is not in the same category as the Vermont state schools.

[polly_mer]

Vermont is such a small state that running a college is a challenge. The state only has 600,000 people, so it is almost like a small city and its suburbs supporting a major college. For comparison, Myrtle Beach, SC and Fort Wayne, IN metro areas have similar populations.

Despite popular belief, UVM is a private, not public or "state" university. It has attracted heavily from outside of Vermont, and had been in recent years getting lots of applicants from around the country. They do get some state funding, but also probably affected the bottom line, but it is not in the same category as the Vermont state schools.

Those would be the same Vermont state schools that were in dire financial straits in summer 2019, well before any pandemic effects?  https://vtdigger.org/2019/06/25/confronting-demographics-state-colleges-consider-reform/

Those would be the Vermont state schools that had a chancellor resign after his solution in April was to consolidate the system into fewer institutions?  https://vtdigger.org/2020/04/17/vermont-state-colleges-chancellor-to-recommend-closing-three-campuses/

Those same Vermont state schools whose board yesterday reported on a plan to consolidate the system to save money, but somehow not close any physical campuses?  https://vtdigger.org/2020/12/07/state-college-trustees-freeze-tuition-explore-unifying-all-the-systems-schools/

Yeah, UVM looks pretty good financially compared to the state schools.