Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[dr_codex]

I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.

Yes, and this was one of the reasons my state system tried to harmonize. (Too many students were being forced to retake too many courses when they transferred, even if they had completed an Associates' degree.)

During the process, it was actually the CCs were the ones who pushed back hardest on the pressure to totally homogenize. That's because they have other functions, too, which are not entirely compatible with functioning as transfer paths.

[polly_mer]

One problem for many institutions in dire financial straits is thinking of their students as spending four years with the institution in a standard pattern under the control of the institution.

With about a third of recent college graduates attending multiple institutions before graduation, being transfer friendly is important for the non-elites. That means planning for a substantial fraction of students to transfer credits (a good articulation agreement with specific engineering programs can work at a CC) and then take mostly major courses.  Some institutions use a model that only admits upper-division students who can demonstrate specific skills.

With almost three-quarters of college students being non-traditional in some sense, non-elites should revisit their ideas of a typical student and see how those students are being served.  It can be fun to look at the actual demographics of current and prospective student pools and compare to the mission of the college as well as the reality of the college.  One way to end up with only 10 of the 30 full-time faculty being in arts, sciences, and humanities is hiring new faculty for the in-demand majors and not replacing the retiring arts, sciences, and humanities faculty.  However, then still selling a liberal arts education is off putting to the prospective students who would enroll for a small college experience as supportive of their complicated lives as well as the prospective students who want a real liberal arts experience on the residential campus filled with liberal arts majors with a lot of free time to play with ideas and read beyond the direct reading assignments.

[spork]

[. . . ]

With almost three-quarters of college students being non-traditional in some sense, non-elites should revisit their ideas of a typical student and see how those students are being served.  It can be fun to look at the actual demographics of current and prospective student pools and compare to the mission of the college as well as the reality of the college. 

[. . .]

Why the frequently-employed business model that depends on auxiliary revenue from full-time residential students is stupid.

Partially related:

Mills College. In spring 2017, a financial stabilization plan was announced. After posting $700,000 in net revenue for FY 2017 (too early to be an effect of said plan), its net revenue was -$8.8 million in FY 2018 and -$6.7 million in FY 2019. Prior to FY 2017, it had negative net revenue for every year since the 2008 Great Recession. Its undergraduate FTE fell to 693 in FY 2019 from 961 in FY 2014. I suspect it is in even worse shape now because of the pandemic. Instruction has been online for this academic year; campus housing is limited to single occupancy rooms this semester. I don't know if any students lived on campus last semester. It is not generating its usual amount of auxiliary revenue, which pre-Covid was not even enough to balance the budget.

[dismalist]

Mills College. In spring 2017, a financial stabilization plan was announced. After posting $700,000 in net revenue for FY 2017 (too early to be an effect of said plan), its net revenue was -$8.8 million in FY 2018 and -$6.7 million in FY 2019. Prior to FY 2017, it had negative net revenue for every year since the 2008 Great Recession. Its undergraduate FTE fell to 693 in FY 2019 from 961 in FY 2014.

I wonder who in hell is covering losses in the millions range for years. Is that eating up endowment [aprés moi le deluge], or borrowed [naive lenders], or fudged [embezzled]?

Many examples on this thread defy imagination. Just do a Chapter 7 voluntarily and be done with it before being forced to.

[onehappyunicorn]

I am an engineering professor. I have two kids in college, one in humanities at an Ivy and one in pre-med at a public R1. We looked at a bunch of different colleges of various kinds, and in the process I realized just how different an engineering program is from, well, everything else.

So when I see people like Matt Reed over at IHE propose that all universities in a state agree on "the first two years," I don't know what that could even mean. If an engineering student were to fill their first two years with classes that would universally satisfy requirements in any degree program, they could not possibly graduate in less than five years total (due to pre-req sequences), and EVERY course they took after the first two years would be in-major or in adjacent fields (math or science).

I realize that my perspective is different from most people here. I appreciate hearing how other fields and institutions work. Just wanted to chime in so people understand that there are different ways to organize a degree program. These differences will impact student behavior at comprehensive universities that have both traditional arts & sciences programs and engineering programs.

Your kids' experience shows how important it is to have distinctive undergraduate programs. How much did they realize that they wanted different things from college? Clearly they had the chops to be pretty choosy about where to go.

Matt Reed is coming from the perspective of a CC administrator. One function of a CC is to provide the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program. That would be worlds easier if there were standardization among CCs and expectations by four-years. I can understand the desire. We all want our metaphorical ponies. The needs of too many others stand in the way, which means that feature cannot be optimized without compromising the whole system of undergrad education.

A higher ed system that can accommodate lots of needs is great for the country. The many ways of organizing a major has a lot of value for students. It also provides opportunity for colleges to figure out what they can do well. This thread features a lot of colleges who have trouble figuring that out.

Yes, and this was one of the reasons my state system tried to harmonize. (Too many students were being forced to retake too many courses when they transferred, even if they had completed an Associates' degree.)

During the process, it was actually the CCs were the ones who pushed back hardest on the pressure to totally homogenize. That's because they have other functions, too, which are not entirely compatible with functioning as transfer paths.

We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners. It took a lot of wrangling to get everyone together but so far it's going as smooth as I think we can reasonably expect. The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. Rigor in the gen eds, particularly writing-intensive courses, trips up a lot of our transfer students when they hit the next level. It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.
We do also exist to serve the community, so if grandma wants to take a painting class she can, but we teach all of our foundation courses as transfer regardless of student intent.

[Hibush]

We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.

[onehappyunicorn]

We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.

The underlying threat back when we started all of this was either work something out or legislators would work it out for us. There were a lot of grumblings about students receiving financial aid to take and pass classes twice, some ugly words like "fraud" got bandied about.

Students are supposed to be assessed and assigned to remedial classes if they aren't up to college level but since that happens outside of our department we don't have a lot of say in that process. I, and the other instructors in our department, try to cajole and warn students as best we can. In our advising sheets and when we meet with students we try to convince them to attempt their math as soon as possible, for example, so they can know if they need additional time before transferring.

Once a student passes the first and second level english classes here there isn't a lot else to help them hone their skills that will count towards their degree. It's a difficult sell to tell them they need to wait and take an elective that won't transfer just so they are better prepared.

There used to be a tuition surcharge levied by the state that raised tuition at public institutions by 50 percent on students who were over by 10 percent or more the credits needed for their degree. I probably didn't express that right, as an example if a student needed 120 credits for their degree as soon as they hit over 132 credits in the system they were charged 1.5 times tuition. The idea was timely completion but it was a scalpel problem being solved with a sledgehammer, thankfully the surcharge was repealed. The sentiment is still there though so we see a lot of pressure to get students through in a timely manner.

[Hibush]

We have a universal articulation agreement for our program that covers the foundation courses of the degree and we have some bilateral articulation agreements in place with our major transfer partners.  ... The CCs (I work at one) have been pretty on-board, the transfer usually works out as a 2+2.5 but we don't have the 2+3.5 or 2+4s that we had in the past. ... It's hard to make up the severe lack of quality high school education, we try to hold the line in our lecture classes with varying degrees of success.

This sounds like a good approach for being indispensable to others, and maintain good will from local legislators who have financial influence.

One question regarding entering students whose writing (or other) skills are not strong enough for their ultimate schools: how common is 2.5 + 2?   That would allow more practice at the CC and better preparation when hitting the upper division majors' courses. It lowers the cost for the student as well.

The underlying threat back when we started all of this was either work something out or legislators would work it out for us. There were a lot of grumblings about students receiving financial aid to take and pass classes twice, some ugly words like "fraud" got bandied about.

Students are supposed to be assessed and assigned to remedial classes if they aren't up to college level but since that happens outside of our department we don't have a lot of say in that process. I, and the other instructors in our department, try to cajole and warn students as best we can. In our advising sheets and when we meet with students we try to convince them to attempt their math as soon as possible, for example, so they can know if they need additional time before transferring.

Once a student passes the first and second level english classes here there isn't a lot else to help them hone their skills that will count towards their degree. It's a difficult sell to tell them they need to wait and take an elective that won't transfer just so they are better prepared.

There used to be a tuition surcharge levied by the state that raised tuition at public institutions by 50 percent on students who were over by 10 percent or more the credits needed for their degree. I probably didn't express that right, as an example if a student needed 120 credits for their degree as soon as they hit over 132 credits in the system they were charged 1.5 times tuition. The idea was timely completion but it was a scalpel problem being solved with a sledgehammer, thankfully the surcharge was repealed. The sentiment is still there though so we see a lot of pressure to get students through in a timely manner.

This makes a good story. The work has been done so that you genuinely prepare students well so that they will succeed when the transfer. The threat to plunge the school into dire financial straits sound as if it is not as acute.

Good communication with legislators now is important, so that "fraud" is not the first thing that comes to mind when the hear of students who need extra attention. "Well-prepared" is a much better notion. Does your school good have people doing the appropriate outreach to frame your current format as the right way to get success?

[Morden]

Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522

[polly_mer]

Part of the community college problem when dealing with legislators is the legitimate question of why any students need remediation, particularly at college tuition rates.  After all, a high school diploma is supposed to indicate a level of proficiency in basic skills.  Paying for k-12 education, then remedial education at the CC, and than again for the same content and skills at the four-year institution seems like a waste of resources.  A good ten years of reform research for remedial education has not yet fixed the problem of people attending college, passing classes, burning through their federal financial aid, and yet still not accumulating college credit towards their degrees.

People aren't charged more for having "too many" credits in the federal financial aid programs, but changes in the past ten years related to adequate progress does mean people can run out of federal financial aid eligibility well before they finish that first degree.

In addition, one argument against gen ed requirements is paying for similar material and skills that clearly aren't sticking in some students.  That same argument of wasted resources on repeated material is harder to make on material that is clearly different because it's not taught to "everyone" in k-12.

[Parasaurolophus]

Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522

I wonder how the rest of their federation is faring. I imagine NOSM is OK, but I have my doubts about Hearst and University of Sudbury.

I'm glad it's not dead, though.

[marshwiggle]

Laurentian University in Canada. Public university filing for creditor protection because it is insolvent.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/laurentian-university-creditor-protection-1.5896522

History of headlines about Laurentian, where you can see the train wreck approaching:

• Aug 14, 2020 -Laurentian University suspends admissions to 17 programs
  Laurentian University in Sudbury has suspended admissions to 17 programs for this fall — and the university's faculty association plans to fight back.
  
  The university says the decision is based on low enrolment numbers.
  [University president]  says any students already enrolled will be able to complete their programs, and the course offerings will not be affected.
  
• Oct 09, 2020 - Laurentian University hires external consultant to address financial woes
  Laurentian University says a pre-existing $7 million dollar deficit combined with what it's calling $5-10 million in COVID-19 impacts, has led the school to hire an external financial advisor.
  'Faculty are saying basically, 'Enough is enough,' says secretary treasurer of faculty association
  
  
• Feb 01, 2021 - Laurentian University, key school for northern Ontario, files for creditor protection
  "Despite our best efforts over the last year, Laurentian is insolvent."
  

Notice the faculty response to news of the approaching iceberg. Basically "Full speed ahead! Don't make us change course!!!"

[Parasaurolophus]

A few years ago they were busy building a new building, and shifted a ton of classes (mostly sciences, IIRC) to trailers while they waited for construction to be complete.

I can't imagine that helped with recruitment, retention, or, indeed, their finances.

[marshwiggle]

A few years ago they were busy building a new building, and shifted a ton of classes (mostly sciences, IIRC) to trailers while they waited for construction to be complete.

I can't imagine that helped with recruitment, retention, or, indeed, their finances.

I can't imagine these helped either:

• Sep 29, 2014 - Laurentian University avoids faculty strike
  The Laurentian University Faculty Association says a tentative settlement has been reached with teachers, ending the threat of a strike.
  
  
• Sep 28, 2017 - Laurentian University 2017 strike
  Striking Laurentian University professors stop cars trying to enter campus from Ramsey Lake Road in the first few hours of the walkout on Thursday morning.
  

Since contracts are typically for three years, if every contract negotiation leads to a strike or the brink of one, it's not going to be attractive to potential students or their parents, who don't want that kind of potential disruption to their education.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

Interestingly, Laurentian was accumulating problems on a growing market (pre-covid, at least).
Post-secondary enrollment in Canada was steadily going up (https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=3710001101). In contrast, in US it seems to have peaked around 2010-2011 and was trending down afterwards (https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cha.asp).