Colleges in Dire Financial Straits

[polly_mer]

In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.

[polly_mer]

Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.

[marshwiggle]

Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.

From the report I indicated earlier, since this is especially true for the French language programs:

But many of the Franco-Ontarian students appear to choose to study in English language or bilingual programs despite the students being typically bilingual as is the case in New Brunswick. They, and their parents, do not necessarily accept the cultural-political imperative of studying in French, which is one of the most important issues to be addressed.

While there is no numerical shortage of potential students for Ontario's francophone institutions and programs, the reality is that the applications and enrollments continue to fall short of what is desired.

The disconnect between what decision-makers think students and parents want, and what they actually want, is the big problem. The assumption about the "potential" students is that they

• want to study in French,
• close to home,
• more than they care about other program considerations.

My sense is that small, struggling places make the same last two assumptions routinely, to their detriment.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

Surprising part about Laurentian is that it was failing in a period when a number of international (i.e. extra lucrative) post-secondary students in the Canadian universities was rapidly increasing (it actually tripled over a decade). A rising tide did not lift all boats apparently.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/201125/t003e-eng.htm

Canadian OPT equivalent - aka PGWP - is much more generous for foreign students, so opportunities to stay in the country after graduating from a school in taiga, are not worse than for a school in the Toronto downtown.

[Wahoo Redux]

In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.

Gosh, Polly.  I've never heard that one before.

Guess it is the Domino Effect all over again, huh?  That paranoia reeeeeeeaaaally worked out well for America and the world.

So you are saying Putin is coming here?

Failure to learn from the past is a reason that certain politicized fanatic thinkers should not be making any decisions because they are, well, fanatic thinkers with a skewed perspective.

Meanwhile, adult education in America takes a dive.   Putin would be most pleased since his overall objective is clearly to damage America.

Take that as rhetorical since we have already derailed the thread.

[spork]

Back to Sudbury and the broader problem of losing competitiveness in the modern world.

I just read https://slate.com/business/2021/04/west-virginia-relocation-grants-morgantown-meh.html including the comments.  Morgantown is a nice place to visit, but the people with a future will be going to Pittsburgh or DC instead of attending WVU to plan to stay in the Morgantown area.  My bet is Sudbury has a similar situation.

This reminds me of regional state university campuses in a place like Maine; for example, Fort Kent, Presque Isle, Farmington. Town populations, respectively, are 3,800, 9,000, and 7,600. The state's flagship campus is 3.5 hours from Fort Kent. Or one can attend USM 5 hours away and be in a small city of 65,000 people.

[Parasaurolophus]

Midwifery may be in demand, but I bet it's expensive to run.  At one point, Super Dinky was losing hundreds of dollars for every nursing credit delivered.  The break even point was something like 3 people fewer than the maximum capacity and there was no way to back fill upper-division students who left for personal reasons.

FWIW, it cost Laurentian zero dollars:

Former midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons.

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)

[marshwiggle]

Former midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons.

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)

This is assuming all of those statements are correct.

From the same article:

On Wednesday, the province announced plans to allow the Northern Ontario School of Medicine to become its own independent, degree-granting institution.

I wonder if the idea is to allow the midwifery program to relocate there, which may be a more appropriate home for it.

[Parasaurolophus]

This is assuming all of those statements are correct.

I mean, the claims come from the program itself (some are mentioned in that CBC article, others come from the petition the program generated to try to save itself). I don't see any real reason to doubt them. If anyone knows about those facts, it's the program itself.

[marshwiggle]

This is assuming all of those statements are correct.

I mean, the claims come from the program itself (some are mentioned in that CBC article, others come from the petition the program generated to try to save itself). I don't see any real reason to doubt them. If anyone knows about those facts, it's the program itself.

But if the program really is always full, and a money-maker, it makes absolutely no sense for it to be cancelled for financial reasons. In fact, it would be counter-productive. My guess is that there are some hidden costs that the program itself didn't mention that actually change the numbers. (If it's a money-maker, and always full, why not raise the cap and make more money?) As I believe you mentioned earlier, the program may use health sciences infrastructure, which doesn't actually show up in the midwifery budget; if all of that infrastructure were being shut down along with the associated programs, there may not be enough money generated by midwifery alone to support it.

In any discussion like this people on both sides of the issue present the situation in a self-serving manner. (The university doesn't seem anxious to draw attention to the decisions made in the last decade that put them in this situation, for instance.)

[Parasaurolophus]

My understanding is that nobody knows the grounds for the cuts because the corporate insolvency process they're using doesn't require that sort of transparency.

It seems to me there's a good chance some of these cuts are ideologically-motivated, rather than financially-motivated.

Or the insolvency overseers decided to cut every program with enrollment below a certain threshold without regard for program finances. That would help explain the disproportionate cuts to French programming, as well as the cut to midwifery. But it would also be really, really stupid.

[polly_mer]

In the meantime, the U.S. pledges $125M in military aid to the Ukraine.

Yep. 

We want all combat to occur off US soil because sending money, materiel, and even troops is much better all around for us than dealing with domestic combat.  Failure to recognize that reality is why many academics should not be allowed to make national/state resource allocation decisions because they are lacking vital perspective.

Gosh, Polly.  I've never heard that one before.

Guess it is the Domino Effect all over again, huh?  That paranoia reeeeeeeaaaally worked out well for America and the world.

My job is such that I spend hours every week with the diplomatic and political aspects of global security and national defense in addition to my technical work.

I assure you that unless one works in those areas as one's esearch areas that I am more informed than someone who reads the newspaper and makes comments based solely on that reading.

There are areas of foreign aid, defense, and global security that can use revision for funding allocations based on current research.  It is unlikely that someone who isn't reading the relevant government committee reports (even just the unclassified ones), the relevant white papers produced by academics, and the relevant reports from State and DoD knows enough to have a productive discussion.

Yeah, I'm an engineer by training, but lifelong learning in relevant academic fields has to go well beyond the gen ed courses taken once as a youth in college.

[polly_mer]

Midwifery may be in demand, but I bet it's expensive to run.  At one point, Super Dinky was losing hundreds of dollars for every nursing credit delivered.  The break even point was something like 3 people fewer than the maximum capacity and there was no way to back fill upper-division students who left for personal reasons.

FWIW, it cost Laurentian zero dollars:

Former midwifery school director Susan James said it was the only bilingual program of its kind in Ontario, and is funded by a government grant and not Laurentian's budget. She said it didn't cost the university anything and, in fact, it contributed tuition to Laurentian.

James said she's heard the program was closed because enrolment is capped at 30, and it can't grow, but she wonders if there are other reasons.

The enrollment cap comes from the province and can't be changed (it also makes this the largest midwifery program in Canada...). But if the program costs nothing, is always fully enrolled (they get 300 applications per year), is one of just three in the province, has a 100% employment rate after graduation, and brings in revenue (even if not a truckload), it's hard for me to see why you'd cut it, except because someone has an axe to grind. (I also imagine it piggybacked on the med school's infrastructure.)

Possibilities that come to mind:

* 30 students paying tuition for a program with practically no electives is less money for the institution than 100 students in something else.  A full boutique program is much less valuable to the university than bigger programs.

* The director is likely not calculating the full cost of the program.  A grant may pay for faculty and equipment, but it is unlikely to cover all the administrative costs associated with student enrollment.  It's possible that this "zero cost to the university" program is more of a one-off that breaks even most years instead of being a cash cow.  Being affiliated with the medical college may make administrative costs worse.

* Frequently, government grants are more trouble than they are really worth, even if the money technically works.  Getting out from under a small program that is strictly run, can't grow, and is therefore not a net attractor to the university as a whole can be a win for the university.

*  Do graduates of the program think of themselves as alumni of the university who will send money back to the university for decades and then leave an estate gift?  Students in small boutique programs seldom consider themselves alumni of the university and therefore aren't nearly as useful to the university as a whole.  Those alumni are also less likely to be in unexpected places to help the larger university with recruitment of future students, job placement outside their expertise, and community relations in the power places.  Midwives are also not known for making a ton of cash, so most of them won't be generous alumni donors even if they think of themselves as university alumni and want to contribute.

The region may benefit from the midwife program, but I don't see any compelling reason for the program to be part of any given university.  After all, if the grants cover all costs, then the whole program can just rent space elsewhere and move.  The rental costs would just be redirected from funds currently going to maintenance and utilities.

[Parasaurolophus]

Hmm, thanks for that. I don't have answers, but I'll keep an eye out as more emerges.

[Stockmann]

The article says 10% of undergraduates will be affected. Laurentian's undergraduate enrollment is 9,000. So eliminated undergrad programs roughly have 900 students in them.

Also note that the 10% figure excludes students at the federated universities, which are also impacted by the cuts (not least because that's where most of the French programming comes from, and it's suffering a massive chunk of the cuts).

I can't speak to Canadian bilingual issues, but I have noticed a strong shift between generational attitudes towards language use and learning in France and Belgium between friends of my grandparents/great-aunt's generation there, in the 1970s, and friends of my own age and younger in the 1990s and since.

The older generation was very resistant to using or using English (one person wondered if it was because they resented needing UK/US help in WWII) and the governmental stance (when I knew of it most directly, about 10 years ago) was that, due to high unemployment, unless native-speaker-level English was needed for a job (a friend worked first as a British international commerce lawyer's paralegal, and later as an EA at OECD in Paris, for example) those who were not of French origin were not given priority for openings.

The older generation only wanted to speak French when we visited, which was fine with me, since I wanted all the practice I could get.

Meanwhile more recently, students have recognized that the jobs they want will all require English fluency and they all want to practice their English--a couple of friends do the "You speak French-I'll speak English--and we'll correct each other" thing...others just make a point of emailing or writing in English and expecting me to reply likewise.

So, the language issues in Canada might be similar--where there are societal trends, economic causes may not be far behind...

M.

Plus, I'd expect French to continue to decline in global economic importance, both in absolute terms and relative to English, so these students aren't making choices only based on the status quo, but also on the basis of future expectations.