Cancelling Dr. Seuss

[ciao_yall]

Can you find one factual example of a teacher, counselor, nurse, etc. calling up a parent of an 8 yo out of the blue and advising transgender care?

The scary part is that there are advocates of the teacher, counselor, etc. providing the "care" without even informing the parents.

Where has this happened?
[/quote]

Define "care." If an 8-year-old child confides in a teacher, counselor, etc that they might be transgender, what is your definition of "care?"

[Wahoo Redux]

NBC News: With over 100 anti-LGBTQ bills before state legislatures in 2023 so far, activists say they're 'fired up'

Lower Deck:

The bills continue to limit gender-affirming health care for minors, while a slate of newer bills target drag performers.

So far, Texas has taken the lead with 36 such bills, according to Equality Texas, a statewide LGBTQ advocacy group. Missouri is next with 26, then North Dakota with eight and Oklahoma with six.

The majority of these approximately 120 bills focus on transgender young people, continuing a trend that began about two years ago.

Can't win the hearts and minds of America? 

Have no real political agenda?

Legislate your prejudice!!!

[marshwiggle]

Can you find one factual example of a teacher, counselor, nurse, etc. calling up a parent of an 8 yo out of the blue and advising transgender care?

The scary part is that there are advocates of the teacher, counselor, etc. providing the "care" without even informing the parents.

Where has this happened?

Some Schools Won't Tell Parents When Their Kids Express Gender Confusion. Experts Say That's Illegal.

Public schools nationwide are telling students they can assume different pronouns, have access to another sex's bathroom, and change their name without letting their parents know, a violation of federal law legal experts tell the Washington Free Beacon.

[Wahoo Redux]

Can you find one factual example of a teacher, counselor, nurse, etc. calling up a parent of an 8 yo out of the blue and advising transgender care?

The scary part is that there are advocates of the teacher, counselor, etc. providing the "care" without even informing the parents.

Where has this happened?

Some Schools Won't Tell Parents When Their Kids Express Gender Confusion. Experts Say That's Illegal.

Public schools nationwide are telling students they can assume different pronouns, have access to another sex's bathroom, and change their name without letting their parents know, a violation of federal law legal experts tell the Washington Free Beacon.

Did you actually read that article?

Is The Washington Free Beacon ("Covering the Enemies of Freedom the Way the Mainstream Media Won't") an objective source that we can trust?

[Langue_doc]

In today's NYT:

When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don't Know
Educators are facing wrenching new tensions over whether they should tell parents when students socially transition at school.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/gender-identity-students-parents.html

[ciao_yall]

In today's NYT:

When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don't Know
Educators are facing wrenching new tensions over whether they should tell parents when students socially transition at school.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/gender-identity-students-parents.html

Saw this.

While not a parent, I wouldn't really want to know all the details of what my child was doing unless they were having problems the school couldn't handle.

If my child was exploring being transgender and didn't want to tell me for whatever reason, I would like to respect their privacy in that case.

ETA: Glanced at the comments. People are freaking out that 16-year-olds are getting hormones at school. NO THEY ARE NOT! They are going by different names and pronouns... and maybe using different bathrooms. THAT'S IT!

[marshwiggle]

In today's NYT:

When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don't Know
Educators are facing wrenching new tensions over whether they should tell parents when students socially transition at school.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/gender-identity-students-parents.html

Saw this.

While not a parent, I wouldn't really want to know all the details of what my child was doing unless they were having problems the school couldn't handle.

If my child was exploring being transgender and didn't want to tell me for whatever reason, I would like to respect their privacy in that case.

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

That is a serious abdication of parental responsibility. (Once they are legal adults, you can decide to not try to interfere in their decisions, but as long as they are legally (and morally) your responsibility, you need to be the most on top of things as you can possibly be. If you're not going to do that, you should never have kids.)

[Wahoo Redux]

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

Not all parents really "know" or understand their children, Marshy.  It's quite true.  Often parents are so ideological they cannot.  And some parents are just plain mean, even if they think they are doing the right thing for their child.  Many, many parents are just dumb.  We do not live in the kind of world in which parents are automatically right and are teachers automatically wrong. 

[marshwiggle]

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

Not all parents really "know" or understand their children, Marshy.  It's quite true.  Often parents are so ideological they cannot.  And some parents are just plain mean, even if they think they are doing the right thing for their child.  We do not live in the kind of world in which parents are automatically right and are teachers automatically wrong.

No, we don't. But we'd be in a whole lot worse world if some arm of the state decided everything about what was "good" for children. (Lots of historical examples of that.)

Teachers should be knowledgeable about a child's educational performance, and how that child interacts with other children. (And of course, teachers can be ideological as well. There's no guarantee that the teacher's ideology is any better for the child in the long run than the parents'. Again, it's very bad news when the state starts to make those assumptions.)

[Wahoo Redux]

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

Not all parents really "know" or understand their children, Marshy.  It's quite true.  Often parents are so ideological they cannot.  And some parents are just plain mean, even if they think they are doing the right thing for their child.  We do not live in the kind of world in which parents are automatically right and are teachers automatically wrong.

No, we don't. But we'd be in a whole lot worse world if some arm of the state decided everything about what was "good" for children. (Lots of historical examples of that.)

Teachers should be knowledgeable about a child's educational performance, and how that child interacts with other children. (And of course, teachers can be ideological as well. There's no guarantee that the teacher's ideology is any better for the child in the long run than the parents'. Again, it's very bad news when the state starts to make those assumptions.)

Well, my friend, there is an arm of the state, several arms, actually, which decide what is "good" for children.  There are many, many assumptions in place already with the government of every civilized country about how parents should raise their children----these become laws, actually.  Just think about it, buddy.  Think about it just a second.

And, of course, sure, teachers may be weirdly ideological too.  What we cannot do is pretend that parenthood is a wholly right and rational mindset or that parents will axiomatically make the right choices. 

You have this hang up about competing "ideologies," don't you?

And older teenagers, while still not legally adults, should have some control of their own lives. 

[marshwiggle]

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

Not all parents really "know" or understand their children, Marshy.  It's quite true.  Often parents are so ideological they cannot.  And some parents are just plain mean, even if they think they are doing the right thing for their child.  We do not live in the kind of world in which parents are automatically right and are teachers automatically wrong.

No, we don't. But we'd be in a whole lot worse world if some arm of the state decided everything about what was "good" for children. (Lots of historical examples of that.)

Teachers should be knowledgeable about a child's educational performance, and how that child interacts with other children. (And of course, teachers can be ideological as well. There's no guarantee that the teacher's ideology is any better for the child in the long run than the parents'. Again, it's very bad news when the state starts to make those assumptions.)

Well, my friend, there is an arm of the state, several arms, actually, which decide what is "good" for children.  There are many, many assumptions in place already with the government of every civilized country about how parents should raise their children----these become laws, actually.  Just think about it, buddy.  Think about it just a second.

And those laws have very specific limits on when and how they can be applied. For instance, children can't just be removed from a home on the whim of some bureaucrat; there are procedures that have to be followed, and which can be challenged in court, to assure that it is only done when there is clear danger to the children from remaining in the home.  A teacher choosing to intentionally not tell parents about something is akin to a bureaucrat arbitrarily removing a child. The lack of transparency is inappropriate in a democratic society. If a teacher believes there is a real danger to a child, as when the teacher suspects abuse, the teacher is legally required to report it, and then the justice system follows the process of investigation and possible further action. The teacher does not, and should not, have the power to unilaterally remove the child from the home.

If a teacher suspects actual harm to a child, related to the parents' religious beliefs, then they should report it like any other kind of danger. They should not simply surreptitiously try to subvert the parents' authority.

ETA: Google "Residential Schools" in Canada to get an insight into the benevolent state deciding what was good for children.

[Kron3007]

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

Not all parents really "know" or understand their children, Marshy.  It's quite true.  Often parents are so ideological they cannot.  And some parents are just plain mean, even if they think they are doing the right thing for their child.  We do not live in the kind of world in which parents are automatically right and are teachers automatically wrong.

No, we don't. But we'd be in a whole lot worse world if some arm of the state decided everything about what was "good" for children. (Lots of historical examples of that.)

Teachers should be knowledgeable about a child's educational performance, and how that child interacts with other children. (And of course, teachers can be ideological as well. There's no guarantee that the teacher's ideology is any better for the child in the long run than the parents'. Again, it's very bad news when the state starts to make those assumptions.)

Well, my friend, there is an arm of the state, several arms, actually, which decide what is "good" for children.  There are many, many assumptions in place already with the government of every civilized country about how parents should raise their children----these become laws, actually.  Just think about it, buddy.  Think about it just a second.

And those laws have very specific limits on when and how they can be applied. For instance, children can't just be removed from a home on the whim of some bureaucrat; there are procedures that have to be followed, and which can be challenged in court, to assure that it is only done when there is clear danger to the children from remaining in the home.  A teacher choosing to intentionally not tell parents about something is akin to a bureaucrat arbitrarily removing a child. The lack of transparency is inappropriate in a democratic society. If a teacher believes there is a real danger to a child, as when the teacher suspects abuse, the teacher is legally required to report it, and then the justice system follows the process of investigation and possible further action. The teacher does not, and should not, have the power to unilaterally remove the child from the home.

If a teacher suspects actual harm to a child, related to the parents' religious beliefs, then they should report it like any other kind of danger. They should not simply surreptitiously try to subvert the parents' authority.

ETA: Google "Residential Schools" in Canada to get an insight into the benevolent state deciding what was good for children.

You know there are situations where a teacher revealing the non-traditional gender identity of a child could lead to very poor outcomes for the youth at home though right?  It could lead to a child or teen being physically abused, disowned, etc. due to ideology.  In a situation where this is a possible outcome (probably based on the youth's opinion), do you think the teacher should be obligated to tell the parents? 

This is the reality of the situation.  Children come from all sorts of situations and in many cases need an adult that they can talk to.  One that will not be obligated or inclined to tell their parents.  The laws we are discussing are not some global conspiracy to transform your children, they are there to protect their interests.

   

[Wahoo Redux]

And those laws have very specific limits on when and how they can be applied. For instance, children can't just be removed from a home on the whim of some bureaucrat; there are procedures that have to be followed, and which can be challenged in court, to assure that it is only done when there is clear danger to the children from remaining in the home.

A teacher choosing to intentionally not tell parents about something is akin to a bureaucrat arbitrarily removing a child. The lack of transparency is inappropriate in a democratic society. If a teacher believes there is a real danger to a child, as when the teacher suspects abuse, the teacher is legally required to report it, and then the justice system follows the process of investigation and possible further action. The teacher does not, and should not, have the power to unilaterally remove the child from the home.

Um...yeah.  That's the way all laws work.  Did you have a point?

And I disagree: a teaching choosing to intentionally not tell a parent about something is a potential liability but also a professional choice.  The analogy to a "bureaucrat arbitrarily removing a child" is the gross, melodramatic hyperbole I see frequently with conservatives these days when they cannot make a real point.

And a transgender teen is not remotely the same thing as a mandatory reporter.  You, like some other posters, appear to equate transgender to bodily danger----incredible apples to oranges.  That's also a wee bit of prejudice, no matter how you sublimate it.

If a teacher suspects actual harm to a child, related to the parents' religious beliefs, then they should report it like any other kind of danger. They should not simply surreptitiously try to subvert the parents' authority.

Again, um...yeah.   

But respecting a student's rights and wishes is not the same thing as "surreptitiously try[ing] to subvert the parent's authority."  Sometimes it is perfectly reasonable to respect a young adult as an adult.  "I want to go to art school but my dad won't let me, so will you write me a letter of recommendation to Cal Arts?" and "My parents are physically abusive and threatened to kill me" are probably the two ends of the spectrum, but there is a great deal between that teachers may have to make choices about.

ETA: Google "Residential Schools" in Canada to get an insight into the benevolent state deciding what was good for children.

You mean Christian conservatives attempting to force First Nations children out of their culture and into a hegemonic and prejudicial mainstream?  Kind of like some conservatives are trying to do to transgender children?  Yeah, we had these schools in America too.  That is a good but oblique example of why some teachers may choose to remain silent about their non-mainstream students.

[jimbogumbo]

Tucker Carlson has cancelled M&Ms for being "woke": https://www.nbcnews.com/news/maya-rudolph-replaces-mms-characters-rcna66994

[ciao_yall]

In today's NYT:

When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don't Know
Educators are facing wrenching new tensions over whether they should tell parents when students socially transition at school.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/22/us/gender-identity-students-parents.html

Saw this.

While not a parent, I wouldn't really want to know all the details of what my child was doing unless they were having problems the school couldn't handle.

If my child was exploring being transgender and didn't want to tell me for whatever reason, I would like to respect their privacy in that case.

Do you seriously believe that your kids' teachers will know your kids that much better than you, when they have known the kid for probably a few months in a class of 20+, whereas you have literally known them since birth?

That is a serious abdication of parental responsibility. (Once they are legal adults, you can decide to not try to interfere in their decisions, but as long as they are legally (and morally) your responsibility, you need to be the most on top of things as you can possibly be. If you're not going to do that, you should never have kids.)

Well, I never did have kids. But I do know some parents who have taken that approach with their teachers. They don't want or need to hear from the school every time their child gets into a tiff with another kid, or forgets their homework. But if it's starting to happen more often, and the child isn't responding to the teacher's attempts to resolve the problem, then yes, let's talk.

And if my kid was choosing to use a different nickname or explore a different identity and didn't want to tell me about it yet, that's fine.