Cancelling Dr. Seuss

[MarathonRunner]

Given that Indigenous children are still taken from their parents at much higher rates than non-Indigenous children in Canada, even when the parents' circumstances are similar, the laws aren't applied equally to all.

[Wahoo Redux]

Tucker Carlson has cancelled M&Ms for being "woke": https://www.nbcnews.com/news/maya-rudolph-replaces-mms-characters-rcna66994

Bat shite crazy.

[kaysixteen]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

2) if kid x confides in teacher that he wishes to be addressed by pronouns contrary to his birth identity, and his parents are told this and forbid it, is this not parental right-- kid cannot for instance change his name legally until he is of age.   If parent x says 'my son is not to be allowed to pretend to be a girl in your school', under what authority and right would the school ignore such wishes?

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

[marshwiggle]

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

This is one that I think makes a good example. For instance, if a girl from a Muslim family did not want to wear a hijab at school, I don't think the teacher should have to force her to wear one. On the other hand, I also don't think the teacher should refuse to answer if the parents ask if she wears the hijab at school, and I certainly think it's very bad for the teacher to lie about it to the parents. As previously stated, if the teacher expects actual abuse, it should be reported, but parents and children disagreeing about rules is about as universal an experience as possible, and people go on to live full and productive lives afterwards. (And have similar disagreements with their own children.)

[ciao_yall]

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

This is one that I think makes a good example. For instance, if a girl from a Muslim family did not want to wear a hijab at school, I don't think the teacher should have to force her to wear one. On the other hand, I also don't think the teacher should refuse to answer if the parents ask if she wears the hijab at school, and I certainly think it's very bad for the teacher to lie about it to the parents. As previously stated, if the teacher expects actual abuse, it should be reported, but parents and children disagreeing about rules is about as universal an experience as possible, and people go on to live full and productive lives afterwards. (And have similar disagreements with their own children.)

There is a difference between the parents asking and the teacher proactively telling them.

If a student is doing something that is not contrary to school rules, such as wearing or not wearing a hijab, then it's really not the school's business.

If the school rule is officially that students use whatever nickname, pronouns, and bathroom they prefer, again, then the student is following school rules and it isn't their business. It's not their job to get involved in a family matter.

[downer]

https://hyperallergic.com/795118/university-shutters-exhibition-featuring-klan-figures-dominique-simmons-arkansas-tech/

I'm struck by the sentence "

Last week, the African American Student Association (AASA) took to Instagram to lambast the exhibition, stating that as a White woman, Simmons has "no place attempting to communicate the issues, struggles, trauma, and history that involve the black community."

"Took to Instragram"? I suspect the author could not resist rolling eyes while writing.

[marshwiggle]

https://hyperallergic.com/795118/university-shutters-exhibition-featuring-klan-figures-dominique-simmons-arkansas-tech/

I'm struck by the sentence "

Last week, the African American Student Association (AASA) took to Instagram to lambast the exhibition, stating that as a White woman, Simmons has "no place attempting to communicate the issues, struggles, trauma, and history that involve the black community."

"Took to Instragram"? I suspect the author could not resist rolling eyes while writing.

Here's my favourite:

"Reading the artist statement didn't really explain the point of the art other than to express her personal/family heritage, which I felt was odd because personally, I wouldn't express my family's heritage if it was, you know, racist or had racial undertones."

So, "expressing one's family heritage", even when it involves taking issue with the unsavoury parts, is unacceptable.

If any of your ancestors did anything bad, they should never be mentioned again.

[Kron3007]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

2) if kid x confides in teacher that he wishes to be addressed by pronouns contrary to his birth identity, and his parents are told this and forbid it, is this not parental right-- kid cannot for instance change his name legally until he is of age.   If parent x says 'my son is not to be allowed to pretend to be a girl in your school', under what authority and right would the school ignore such wishes?

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

1). There is a lot of space between doing nothing and killing someone.  As a teacher, if a child came to you and said they prefer to be referred to as she/he, but are concerned their parents would disown them (for example, which is a fairly common outcome), do you feel it would be appropriate to break their confidence? 

There are many levels of abuse and other forms of mistreatment that would not trigger any intervention.  Do you disagree that children/teens should have a safe space at school to discuss issues in confidence? 

What if this issue was reversed and the parents were forcing their little boy to use gender neutral pronouns and wear their hair in aponytail with a pink scrunchy despite that they didn't want to?  Do you feel the school should tell the parents and automatically enforce their wishes or let the boy use male pronouns and let their hair down?

[marshwiggle]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

2) if kid x confides in teacher that he wishes to be addressed by pronouns contrary to his birth identity, and his parents are told this and forbid it, is this not parental right-- kid cannot for instance change his name legally until he is of age.   If parent x says 'my son is not to be allowed to pretend to be a girl in your school', under what authority and right would the school ignore such wishes?

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

1). There is a lot of space between doing nothing and killing someone.  As a teacher, if a child came to you and said they prefer to be referred to as she/he, but are concerned their parents would disown them (for example, which is a fairly common outcome), do you feel it would be appropriate to break their confidence? 

There are many levels of abuse and other forms of mistreatment that would not trigger any intervention.  Do you disagree that children/teens should have a safe space at school to discuss issues in confidence?

We tell children not to get into strangers' cars, and not to take candy from strangers, etc. This is not because most strangers are evil, but because the few who are could employ tactics like that to take advantage of a child. Similarly, it is not a good precedent to get children to have secrets with adults that they keep from their parents, because there  are people who will use that to take advantage of children.

Furthermore, teachers are not trained counselors, either for medical or mental health matters. If a teacher feels a child needs professional counseling, then the child should be referred to a qualified professional. (Just like if a teacher suspects abuse, they should report it.)  Teachers who see themselves as more knowledgeable and/or more sympathetic than a child's parents, AND qualified to counsel on serious issues have a huge ego problem.

[ciao_yall]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

Up until the point at which a child can think for himself/herself and negotiate those differences.

As far as taking on a "trans idenity," where is the line in your mind? A girl named Jessica wants to be called "Jess." A boy named Nicholas wants to be called "Nicki." Kids role-playing the opposite gender in a game. Dressing in clothing that might be considered appropriate for the opposite gender.

Again, if the other students don't mind, aren't bullying, and the student isn't otherwise disrupting school operations, don't the schools have more important things to worry about? Like... school shootings?

2) if kid x confides in teacher that he wishes to be addressed by pronouns contrary to his birth identity, and his parents are told this and forbid it, is this not parental right-- kid cannot for instance change his name legally until he is of age.   If parent x says 'my son is not to be allowed to pretend to be a girl in your school', under what authority and right would the school ignore such wishes?

"Mr. Parent, our school rules are that students can choose their own nicknames, pronouns and gender identities. At school we have a lot of students who need active monitoring for their own health and safety and that of others. This issue does not rise to that level of concern for the school so we will focus on students who have more pressing problems.

"What happens at home is your business. We hope you and your child can come to an agreement."

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

Does a school worry about which kids eat ham sandwiches or roast beef on Friday or whose parents are vegan and wouldn't want them to eat pepperoni pizza? Unless it's a life-threatening allergy, I can't imagine schools worrying about whether a student's ordinary activities violate some family's personal practices.

Same with socializing with other children of different religions, races, or "enemy" nationalities. If the kids are happily playing peacefully, why would the teachers try to stir up trouble with the parents?

[Kron3007]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

2) if kid x confides in teacher that he wishes to be addressed by pronouns contrary to his birth identity, and his parents are told this and forbid it, is this not parental right-- kid cannot for instance change his name legally until he is of age.   If parent x says 'my son is not to be allowed to pretend to be a girl in your school', under what authority and right would the school ignore such wishes?

3) What other things might a teacher do, contrary to the wishes of the parents?   If a kid wishes to stop participating in his parents' family religion, and adopt another religion, should the school facilitate such changes?

1). There is a lot of space between doing nothing and killing someone.  As a teacher, if a child came to you and said they prefer to be referred to as she/he, but are concerned their parents would disown them (for example, which is a fairly common outcome), do you feel it would be appropriate to break their confidence? 

There are many levels of abuse and other forms of mistreatment that would not trigger any intervention.  Do you disagree that children/teens should have a safe space at school to discuss issues in confidence?

We tell children not to get into strangers' cars, and not to take candy from strangers, etc. This is not because most strangers are evil, but because the few who are could employ tactics like that to take advantage of a child. Similarly, it is not a good precedent to get children to have secrets with adults that they keep from their parents, because there  are people who will use that to take advantage of children.

Furthermore, teachers are not trained counselors, either for medical or mental health matters. If a teacher feels a child needs professional counseling, then the child should be referred to a qualified professional. (Just like if a teacher suspects abuse, they should report it.)  Teachers who see themselves as more knowledgeable and/or more sympathetic than a child's parents, AND qualified to counsel on serious issues have a huge ego problem.

So what is with confession at church then! 

My high school had councilors and that would indeed be the appropriate response.  The teacher should send them to the councilor, who is trained in these matters, and keep what was disclosed to them by the student in confidence.  If there are no councilors, I feel the teacher should still provide an ear as the student may have nowhere else to turn.  I guess I feel the risk of children being taken advantage of is greater without this outlet (most cases of abuse (sexual and otherwise) are from relatives).       

[marshwiggle]

Furthermore, teachers are not trained counselors, either for medical or mental health matters. If a teacher feels a child needs professional counseling, then the child should be referred to a qualified professional. (Just like if a teacher suspects abuse, they should report it.)  Teachers who see themselves as more knowledgeable and/or more sympathetic than a child's parents, AND qualified to counsel on serious issues have a huge ego problem.

So what is with confession at church then! 

Hearing "confession" would count as a form of spiritual counseling, and a member of the clergy would be the person with the appropriate training to provide spiritual counseling.

My high school had councilors and that would indeed be the appropriate response.  The teacher should send them to the councilor, who is trained in these matters, and keep what was disclosed to them by the student in confidence.  If there are no councilors, I feel the teacher should still provide an ear as the student may have nowhere else to turn.  I guess I feel the risk of children being taken advantage of is greater without this outlet (most cases of abuse (sexual and otherwise) are from relatives).     

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

[Kron3007]

Furthermore, teachers are not trained counselors, either for medical or mental health matters. If a teacher feels a child needs professional counseling, then the child should be referred to a qualified professional. (Just like if a teacher suspects abuse, they should report it.)  Teachers who see themselves as more knowledgeable and/or more sympathetic than a child's parents, AND qualified to counsel on serious issues have a huge ego problem.

So what is with confession at church then! 

Hearing "confession" would count as a form of spiritual counseling, and a member of the clergy would be the person with the appropriate training to provide spiritual counseling.

My high school had councilors and that would indeed be the appropriate response.  The teacher should send them to the councilor, who is trained in these matters, and keep what was disclosed to them by the student in confidence.  If there are no councilors, I feel the teacher should still provide an ear as the student may have nowhere else to turn.  I guess I feel the risk of children being taken advantage of is greater without this outlet (most cases of abuse (sexual and otherwise) are from relatives).     

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

Considering the example of the girl who doesn't want to wear a hijab; simply listening to her struggles is not a problem. Encouraging her to take off her hijab at school is implicitly undermining her parents' authority. (This doesn't mean the teacher has to nag her to wear the hijab, either. The teacher should be neutral by default.)

Qualified or not, there are problems afoot with the Priest-alter boy relationship.

As for the teachers, we seem to agree for the most part as weird as that is.  I suppose my concern is that many schools do not have guidance councilors , which forces teachers to step into this role.  It is not ideal, but better than leaving children without any resources outside of their family.  I also assume teachers do have some rudimentary training on what to do in these situations. 

[Wahoo Redux]

Awright I am going to reengage here, and ask several questions:

1) exactly what are 'parents' rights' wrt how their minor children are to be raised?   I get that it is possible that informing parent x that his kid has embraced trans identity might induce a violent reaction, but there is simply no widespread epidemic of parents killing trans children.   Really, there just ain't, and mandated reporter laws provide for quick contacting of the cops whenever real violence is observed.

This is one of those incredible strawmen arguments that doesn't really deserve a response.

I've never heard of this claim about parents killing trans kids.  Has anyone?  Are hardcore social conservatives incapable of sticking to the facts?  Or, in order to virtue signal, must they go all reductio ad absurdum on us?

And again, trans is not violence or attempts at bodily injury, so don't try to compare them in an attempt to construct an  argument.

But there are other kinds of damage done from parents who cannot beat their own prejudices.

[Wahoo Redux]

If a teacher were only listening, that wouldn't be a big problem. However, many (if not most) would feel the need to actually provide advice, including advice which conflicts with the parents' wishes.

As always, Marshyman, I think you just make things up in order to have a point to argue.

Either that, or you seem to take one or a handful of incidents and make rather propagandistic blanket statements out of them.

What teacher(s) have done this?  Is this a trend?