Cancelling Dr. Seuss

[mahagonny]

Professor fired for saying her worst students were black

Breaking news:  Alan Dershowitz weighs in, in Newsweek, no less. And validates us. Georgetown Law School was way around the bend on this one, and I hope there's more discussion and furor. And also, according to Dershowitz, stifling free speech by the politically correct mob has become an epidemic in academia. https://www.newsweek.com/georgetown-fires-professor-agonizing-over-black-students-grades-opinion-1576636

[Wahoo Redux]

Secondly, expression is sacrosanct.  It is a cornerstone of American civilization.  It is actually more important than the possibility that someone might do something bad.  Again, we have mechanisms to rectify and combat bad people's bad actions.  Now you want to silence their ideas? 


Do you think your limitations and restrictions are going to change anything for the better?

You keep saying you know that the first amendment just applies to governments, but then you write stuff like this and I don't now if you do. Free expression doesn't mean you can't get fired for your beliefs or for things you say. It has never meant that. There never has been some principle that everyone can say anything they want and not face consequences for it. That's not what people like J.S Mill thought. its just something you've made up.

Yeeeeesssss Caracal.  Pedantry is not a debate point.  You have no esoteric understanding.

Did I ever mention the First Amendment?  Please don't strawman.

I am saying, very simply, that once we allow corporate and governmental entities, our employers, the ability to censor us outside the workplace we are in very dangerous waters.  I simply use "free speech" as a familiar concept.  I see our lack of protections from our employers as a threat to the freedoms enshrined in our contract with the government.

I am saying we need protection from employers who would censor us.

I am also saying that universities who fire professors for complaining privately about black students is in the same territory as those who demand Dr. Seuss be shut down. 

I am further saying that one think of this issue very one-dimensionally and do not seem to comprehend that you could be on the chopping block.  I am guessing you are not a MAGA hat wearing person?  Might you have expressed yourself on social media or in a private email?

[Wahoo Redux]

I don't much care for Dershowitz, but read the essay:

"The chilling effect on freedom of expression and freedom of belief was perhaps best reflected by the abject apologies issued by both participants in the conversation."

"Those of us who strongly believe in academic freedom, freedom of thought and expression and true diversity of ideas must fight back against the groupthink now being imposed by university administrators, at the demand of students and others who seek to censor certain ideas. Firing professors for expressing deeply felt angst and honestly believed positions on complex matters is simply un-American. Georgetown is better than that, and must do better for the sake of all Americans who have the right to hear all points of view on divisive issues."

I think, Caracal, that Dershowitz understands the First Amendment.

[mahagonny]

I don't much care for Dershowitz, but read the essay:

"The chilling effect on freedom of expression and freedom of belief was perhaps best reflected by the abject apologies issued by both participants in the conversation."

"Those of us who strongly believe in academic freedom, freedom of thought and expression and true diversity of ideas must fight back against the groupthink now being imposed by university administrators, at the demand of students and others who seek to censor certain ideas. Firing professors for expressing deeply felt angst and honestly believed positions on complex matters is simply un-American. Georgetown is better than that, and must do better for the sake of all Americans who have the right to hear all points of view on divisive issues."

I think, Caracal, that Dershowitz understands the First Amendment.

I don't love Dershowitz either but I am thinking more 'don't look a gift horse in the mouth.' The thing was said correctly and it needed to be said by someone who gets written about when he has something to say.

[mahagonny]

eBay takes the moral stand: https://www.businessinsider.com/discontinued-dr-seuss-books-with-racist-imagery-removed-by-ebay-2021-3

While continuing to make pornography available to children
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Archive-Bidding-Buying/why-does-ebay-allow-sellers-to-sell-pornography/td-p/20416984

[Parasaurolophus]

Dershowitz is just angry that the people of Martha's Vineyard won't talk to him any more, ever since he got all Trumpy.

Why they ever bothered to be nice to a man whose first wife disappeared under suspicious circumstances and who then made it his life's work to defend men who'd definitely murdered their wives, and who was a platinum Epstein-club fanboy, I don't know.

As for campus free speech, the real threat remains the right.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Remember when Dershowitz cancelled Norm Finkelstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_rejection_and_resignation

Funny, I don't remember conservatives complaining about that

[Wahoo Redux]

Remember when Dershowitz cancelled Norm Finkelstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_rejection_and_resignation

Funny, I don't remember conservatives complaining about that

Perfect example of why we need to protect freedom of expression on the campus.

As I posted before, people only imagine the sword cutting one way (and then all the bad people will have to shut up) but it's a double-edged weapon.

[pepsi_alum]

I mostly don't post in culture war threads because I figure that people have spent their entire lives figuring out their own beliefs and that arguing about it probably isn't going to change minds. I did want to quickly weigh in here. According to WorldCat, And to Think that I Saw It on Mulberry Street is still available at 3,007 libraries and McElligot's Pool is still available at 2,232 libraries, including the library of several college/universities that are supposedly at the vanguard of cancel culture.

As for the issue that W_R raises about college faculty/staff being fired over spurious allegations of discriminatory behavior that have possible freedom of speech issues associated with them, I think there is an important discussion to be had there. But it will be much more productive conversation if discussed separately from Dr. Seuss.

Just my $.02. That plus $0.50 won't get you a cup of coffee anymore, but you can still use it toward your purchase of either the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal depending on your political beliefs.



PS--Not sure if you can see the location I used in WorldCat. I'm not actually in Washington state -- I just used Olympia as my location to make the point that Evergreen State College does still have a circulating copy of at least one of the Dr. Seuss books in question.

[mahagonny]

As for the issue that W_R raises about college faculty/staff being fired over spurious allegations of discriminatory behavior that have possible freedom of speech issues associated with them, I think there is an important discussion to be had there. But it will be much more productive conversation if discussed separately from Dr. Seuss.

There's also the issue of students who are not to the left politically fearing getting ostracized and thus not feeling free express themselves in and out of the classroom.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/evidence-conservative-students-really-do-self-censor/606559/

'Disparaging comments about political conservatives are common.'

For the educator who worries about college faculty/staff being fired over spurious allegations of discriminatory behavior that have possible freedom of speech issues associated with them, it makes sense to focus on the student experience, since
1. Most of us don't have structural academic freedom protection anyway; the only way to cause a furor is to get the press on board, not an easy chore
2. So many faculty are largely isolated from recognition for research, promotion, etc. and are thus pointedly expendable, another mouth to feed,
3. Students, OTOH, have to be listened to because they are where the money comes from, not where it goes.

[Caracal]

I mostly don't post in culture war threads because I figure that people have spent their entire lives figuring out their own beliefs and that arguing about it probably isn't going to change minds. I did want to quickly weigh in here. According to WorldCat, And to Think that I Saw It on Mulberry Street is still available at 3,007 libraries and McElligot's Pool is still available at 2,232 libraries, including the library of several college/universities that are supposedly at the vanguard of cancel culture.

As for the issue that W_R raises about college faculty/staff being fired over spurious allegations of discriminatory behavior that have possible freedom of speech issues associated with them, I think there is an important discussion to be had there. But it will be much more productive conversation if discussed separately from Dr. Seuss.

Just my $.02. That plus $0.50 won't get you a cup of coffee anymore, but you can still use it toward your purchase of either the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal depending on your political beliefs.



PS--Not sure if you can see the location I used in WorldCat. I'm not actually in Washington state -- I just used Olympia as my location to make the point that Evergreen State College does still have a circulating copy of at least one of the Dr. Seuss books in question.

That's my issue with these discussions. Twenty different things get wound up into a big ball-you stick a label on it that says "cancel culture" and then start yelling about it.

This article
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/10/us/politics/kristine-hostetter-capitol.html?action=click&module=In%20Other%20News&pgtype=Homepage

is a good example of the problem. There's just no attempt by anybody here, including the reporter, to actually distinguish between the different threads of the problem and there are a lot of distinct issues which could be treated separately.

1. Was this person just in Washington participating in a political protest many people might find repugnant or were they involved in an illegal and violent attack on the capitol building.

2. The issue of this person's general behavior in the community. I'd be concerned about a fourth grade teacher who screams at families for wearing masks just as a basic issue of good judgement and acceptable treatment of others separate from all the politics behind it.

3. The more complicated issue of political affiliations and the free speech rights of public employees. Courts have held that these rights are extensive, but not absolute. For example, the upheld the firing of police officers for racist speech online or going to white supremacist conferences. Its hard to figure out how to apply that to a really overheated political climate with lots of radicalization going on.

4. The stuff about her husband, which seems not particularly germane. Ok, he seems like a bad dude, but what does that have to do with anything. You can't hold someone responsible for their spouse's actions.

[pepsi_alum]

Totally agree, Caracal. I find the whole idea of "cancel culture" frustratingly imprecise. NBC can cancel a television show because of low ratings. I can cancel an Amazon.com shopping order that I made at 2am. The associate vice chancellor of Southern North Dakota State University at Hoople East River campus can cancel a planned speech to alumni donors because he tests positive for Covid. But I can't "cancel" another person or text I don't like. I can withdraw my support or choose to boycott them, but I can't compel other people to do the same against their will, nor should I be able to.

Mahagonny: if you want to start another thread about student free speech issues, go ahead. We still may not reach a meeting of the minds, but I think we'll find more points of common ground if we consider the issue on its own merits. (For the record, I am a political progressive but I don't use critical pedagogy in my own classes).

[mahagonny]

Totally agree, Caracal. I find the whole idea of "cancel culture" frustratingly imprecise. NBC can cancel a television show because of low ratings. I can cancel an Amazon.com shopping order that I made at 2am. The associate vice chancellor of Southern North Dakota State University at Hoople East River campus can cancel a planned speech to alumni donors because he tests positive for Covid. But I can't "cancel" another person or text I don't like. I can withdraw my support or choose to boycott them, but I can't compel other people to do the same against their will, nor should I be able to.

What they are really cancelling is your opportunity to think differently from the new liberal orthodoxy, unless you're going to deftly keep it to yourself. By adopting a black lives matter agenda a public school effectively becomes a religious school.
on edit: the student, Esther, recalled that her experience in the classroom with Hostetter was acceptably free of racism as Hostetter taught the kids to be racially colorblind. But she can't do that anymore because the school has signed on with BLM, or they're on the verge of it. So she's now officially a racist. So why would it surprise us if she feels like acting like one here and there? She's branded. The colorblind ethic of MLK is being scrapped.

[Caracal]

Totally agree, Caracal. I find the whole idea of "cancel culture" frustratingly imprecise. NBC can cancel a television show because of low ratings. I can cancel an Amazon.com shopping order that I made at 2am. The associate vice chancellor of Southern North Dakota State University at Hoople East River campus can cancel a planned speech to alumni donors because he tests positive for Covid. But I can't "cancel" another person or text I don't like. I can withdraw my support or choose to boycott them, but I can't compel other people to do the same against their will, nor should I be able to.

Yeah, exactly. And NBC can also cancel a show with good ratings because they decide that they don't want to be associated with the star's politics. There's no right to have a tv show. Public employees have a limited right to express their views without retaliation.  People employed by private employees mostly don't. Faculty members with tenure have rights of academic freedom, which is a different thing. None of us get to be immune to what other people think of our speech.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Remember when Dershowitz cancelled Norm Finkelstein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein#Tenure_rejection_and_resignation

Funny, I don't remember conservatives complaining about that

Perfect example of why we need to protect freedom of expression on the campus.

As I posted before, people only imagine the sword cutting one way (and then all the bad people will have to shut up) but it's a double-edged weapon.

Great! I'll look forward to the threads from you and others about conservative efforts to cancel people, since we both apparently agree that this is not something that is specific to liberals or Democrats. I'd start with the efforts to cancel the 1619 project, then move on to the attacks on Colin Kirkpatrick's right to free expression (and that of other athletes). If you want something more recent, how about calls by people like Moscow Mitch and Rand Paul for boycotts on MLB or Coca Cola. All of these are more chilling of speech than Dr. Seuss deciding not to print a few of their own books, each is deeply inconsistent with conservative "values," and each was actually endorsed by conservative media and/or politicians.

Looking forward to a rousing discussion of the various conservative efforts to cancel speech!