What can we tell about schools that have tones of open part-time positions

[Ruralguy]

I guess thats the bottom line. Half of the people who won't get those jobs probably wouldn't have really enjoyed them much anyway.

[polly_mer]

I guess thats the bottom line. Half of the people who won't get those jobs probably wouldn't have really enjoyed them much anyway.

We already see many, many people who are quite angry about the realities of being faculty, even at objectively good enough academic jobs.

I have many colleagues who leave academia for positions where their job is research, not being project management so students and postdocs get to do the research.  The shock of being faculty in charge of getting research done, but not getting the daily joy of process was pretty stark.  My current job that is officially 100% research, but realistically about 60% research, 20% compliance with bureaucratic demands, and 20% service (mentoring, sitting on committees, participating with hiring).

I love to teach and mentor, but it was horrible to attempt to teach people who were undermotivated, underprepared, and angry about having to take classes.  It was horrible to try to work with peers who were sure, as the old Soviet saying goes,  they pretend to pay us and we pretend to work instead of believing in the mission and making a valiant go with limited resources. 

We often have newer faculty on these fora who are quite angry that their teaching job, even with majors and some research expectations, wasn't like grad school with a couple extra course meeting per week.

That's even before we get to the hamburger-type situation of trying to teach at an institution that shouldn't even be open because no one is benefiting except the people who got a paycheck this week for not collapsing.

[Ruralguy]

We have to realize that the ideal isn't for every PhD graduate to have a faculty job eventually, but rather that every PhD. student gets a job that is best suited to their desires and skills.

Maybe academia will reach an unintended equilibrium with students and faculty who both want to be there!

[mahagonny]

We have to realize that the ideal isn't for every PhD graduate to have a faculty job eventually, but rather that every PhD. student gets a job that is best suited to their desires and skills.

Maybe academia will reach an unintended equilibrium with students and faculty who both want to be there!

Or that every student will have length of time and investment in his/her academic career that makes sense for building a life of quality and solvency, and not way more time/moeny spent as a student than that. But you won't hear that from people in the business of awarding PhD's. Not too often.

[Ruralguy]

If I understand you correctly, that's  part of it. It was part of another thread  a few days ago, but we discussed how Ph.D. programs could change to better prepare graduates for a variety of careers, some of which they might enjoy more than academia. Probably many would pay better. Virtually all would be better than the adjunct death march.

[mahagonny]

In my case, more formal education could've increased my earnings. But I do OK. If I were in the academic advising business I would probably just tell the students 'don't go for PhD in any field where the best jobs are college teaching jobs. It's a trap.' And then after several weeks of that, I'd be relieved of my advising chores.

[Ruralguy]

Really? My school certainly doesn't care if you tell students not to pursue Ph.D.s,or get one, but don't be an academic. They're pretty good at not doing that!  Even many R1s have people telling undergrads not to pursue such careers.

You might get pressure to shut up if you were the graduate student adviser/director for a particular dept., but then why would take on such a duty?

In any case, Ph D. Birth control is likely to already happen due to the demographic bubble, although the academic jobs will largely not exist as well.

[hamburger]

I cannot understand why so many schools are begging people to join their PhD programs. We have too many PhD already. Why they are so desperate to admit even bad students into their PhD programs? I had an undergraduate whose average was in the 60s but she is getting multiple fundings to do a PhD. She told me that the entire class got 30s in an exam and students joined force to threaten the professor and complained to the department head in an attempt to get higher grades.

[hamburger]

Its unfortunate, but kind of the way of the world. Everything involving computers and related hardware and software has gotten easier to learn. If people can then sell their wares a discount, then they will.

True. The digital age disgusted me. Now everything became common knowledge and everything posted on the internet gets recorded permanently. Wish I were born over 100-200 years ago when there were a few PhD and they were well respected with good job security. When I was a voluntary, I introduced myself telling people that I was a professor and had a PhD. They did not give a damn. When there were openings, a student and a staff with lower qualifications got the jobs. 

[Caracal]

Really? My school certainly doesn't care if you tell students not to pursue Ph.D.s,or get one, but don't be an academic. They're pretty good at not doing that!  Even many R1s have people telling undergrads not to pursue such careers.

You might get pressure to shut up if you were the graduate student adviser/director for a particular dept., but then why would take on such a duty?

In any case, Ph D. Birth control is likely to already happen due to the demographic bubble, although the academic jobs will largely not exist as well.

I don't really disagree with any of this, however, I think we fall into a trap when we buy the line that demographics and economics dictate the future. The demographic stuff is complicated. The college aged population, overall, is expected to decline, but that decline is projected to be concentrated in the northeast and midwest, and in rural areas. In other places, there's substantial growth projected, especially in cities in the south and west. Of course, the tenure track academic job market is a national one, and it is hard to imagine there aren't going to be fewer tenure track jobs in the future.

But look, the last couple of decades have seen a big growth in the college aged population and it hasn't helped the academic job market. Instead, we've seen more and more reliance on contingent faculty. I can't see how you can have fewer and fewer full time faculty but rely on them to teach more and more courses and do more and more service. Among other problems, is that going to help attract students in an increasingly competitive environment for schools?

There's room here for a future where there might be fewer grad students, fewer tenure track jobs, fewer people teaching college overall, but a conversion of adjunct positions to full time non tenure track ones where they do more of the service and advising. The problem with these academic declension narratives is everyone abdicates their responsibilities to try to improve things and takes refuge in prognostication.

[marshwiggle]

Its unfortunate, but kind of the way of the world. Everything involving computers and related hardware and software has gotten easier to learn. If people can then sell their wares a discount, then they will.

True. The digital age disgusted me. Now everything became common knowledge and everything posted on the internet gets recorded permanently. Wish I were born over 100-200 years ago when there were a few PhD and they were well respected with good job security. When I was a voluntary, I introduced myself telling people that I was a professor and had a PhD. They did not give a damn. When there were openings, a student and a staff with lower qualifications got the jobs.

For any task, there is no need to hire people who are overqualified if the job can be adequately done by someone with lesser but sufficient qualifications. If I break my arm, I don't necessarily need an orthopedic surgeon, especially if it's a clean break. A nurse or EMT may be able to do a perfectly adequate job, especially if I'm hours from a hospital with an orthopedic surgeon. I don't need an accountant to handle my small business; a bookkeeper can do everything required.

When people are hiring for a job, all they need to ensure is that the person they're hiring can do what the job requires, not that they have the highest qualifications in that area.

[spork]

Its unfortunate, but kind of the way of the world. Everything involving computers and related hardware and software has gotten easier to learn. If people can then sell their wares a discount, then they will.

True. The digital age disgusted me. Now everything became common knowledge and everything posted on the internet gets recorded permanently. Wish I were born over 100-200 years ago when there were a few PhD and they were well respected with good job security. When I was a voluntary, I introduced myself telling people that I was a professor and had a PhD. They did not give a damn. When there were openings, a student and a staff with lower qualifications got the jobs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaCHH5D74Fs&ab_channel=wsinful

[polly_mer]

There's still a great future in plastics!  We are short on grad students in polymers and materials in general.

Don't go to grad school in the fields where most of the jobs are college teaching jobs!

However, having the math and computer skills to do plastics means you'll have a professional class job as long as you're willing to move, have a solid professional network, and refrain from being snotty about how your PhD should make you a Very Important Person.

I took flak on the old fora for being an institutional researcher with a PhD in engineering.  I saw it as having an interesting job that paid well enough while I waited out a personal limitation on moving.  At this point, it was still an interesting job that paid well enough and means I have new, modern skills that are handy in my current position as a professional scientist, but were not part of my graduate work.

[Caracal]

Wish I were born over 100-200 years ago when there were a few PhD and they were well respected with good job security.

Those instructors didn't share your rosy view of their jobs. Most of them spent a lot of time complaining that the students were rich entitled jerks who were only in college to make social connections and get in trouble.  Faculty were also in charge of discipline, sometimes this resulted in them quite literally being attacked by students  when they tried to break up parties. They didn't think they got paid enough to deal with all of this.

[Caracal]

There's still a great future in plastics!  We are short on grad students in polymers and materials in general.

Plastics!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk