What can we tell about schools that have tones of open part-time positions

[Ruralguy]

I think most people here know these things about CC's. Its just that some want to be able to use them as stepping stones. Well, that's OK, you are allowed to leave, none are affiliated with cults as far as I know. But you can't blame them if someone shows up and just performs the job in a perfunctory manner or worse. They have every right to want you to want to be there. Its not their fault that many new Ph.D.'s don't like working at place with that sort of mission.

[polly_mer]

I think most people here know these things about CC's. Its just that some want to be able to use them as stepping stones. Well, that's OK, you are allowed to leave, none are affiliated with cults as far as I know. But you can't blame them if someone shows up and just performs the job in a perfunctory manner or worse. They have every right to want you to want to be there. Its not their fault that many new Ph.D.'s don't like working at place with that sort of mission.

Well, if we define "know" as "being able to select the correct answer on a written test", then I agree that most people know.

If we define " know" as "able to use information to perform daily tasks that have a high likelihood of achieving personal goals", then almost no one who has asked our advice in the past decade knew, even after repeated exposure to the facts and actual lectures on the material.

[Ruralguy]

OK, I'll put it this way. They know the facts of how CC's operate, but are unable to convert this knowledge into actual operating principles. Or they just think they can steam roll. Go in there, do their thing, expect everyone to appreciate it, then move out.  For many people who were trained to academically achieve since before they could tie their shoelaces, the whole world is an academic hierarchy and should work off of that. That is, that CC, because the people who work there have fewer degrees or a shorter stack of published papers, *should* just let me do my thing regardless of how well it fits the mission of the school.

[downer]

There's a considerable gap between how CCs actually operate and the theoretical ideal of how they should operate. The same is true for 4 year colleges. There's a lot of lip service to the goal of teaching, but I've seen nothing that really indicates a massive commitment to it above and beyond what happens in other places.

[polly_mer]

OK, I'll put it this way. They know the facts of how CC's operate, but are unable to convert this knowledge into actual operating principles. Or they just think they can steam roll. Go in there, do their thing, expect everyone to appreciate it, then move out.  For many people who were trained to academically achieve since before they could tie their shoelaces, the whole world is an academic hierarchy and should work off of that. That is, that CC, because the people who work there have fewer degrees or a shorter stack of published papers, *should* just let me do my thing regardless of how well it fits the mission of the school.

Yes, I agree that's a common mindset and hamburger has displayed that mindset.

Readers at home, this mindset tends to be a trap and will not lead to the academic job you want.  You are better off getting some other kind of job where you are climbing a career ladder, adjuncting at an institution that has the kind of students you want to teach, and applying  for VAP/non-TT to get the relevant faculty experience outside the classroom.

I emphasize the main job as climbing a career ladder because it's possible that you, dear reader, will never get the academic job you want.  Ten to fifteen years of climbing a career ladder can put you in a good place as a professional with solid finances.  One year of a bill-paying job repeated fifteen times means you stay in the entry-level job at low pay, still don't have the academic job, and are now middle aged with little to show after 20+ years of formal education and 10+ years of work experience.

[polly_mer]

There's a considerable gap between how CCs actually operate and the theoretical ideal of how they should operate. The same is true for 4 year colleges. There's a lot of lip service to the goal of teaching, but I've seen nothing that really indicates a massive commitment to it above and beyond what happens in other places.

You're an adjunct, not a professional fellow, right? 

You aren't one of only a handful of adjuncts in a sea of TT/T folks, right?

Almost by definition, your employers have a mission of "pay the bills and keep the doors open" instead of focusing on teaching.  Employment at that type of CC is absolutely not going to lead to hamburger's ideal academic position or even an OK position at the three steps above Super Dinkies of the nation.

[downer]

I am large, I contain multitudes.

The places I work are mostly dominated by adjunct faculty.

I think we all agree that hamburger is fried.

[Ruralguy]

He might just be grilled.  But if you are cooked, you are cooked.

[Kron3007]

Those seem like big generalizations about CCs. There's a lot of variation. I suspect that the one where I teach would not look at candidates for tenure track positions if they didn't have a PhD. Indeed, I think a large majority of the adjunct faculty in my dept have PhDs. While the focus is teaching, they still value some research.

That's not to offer any hope to the OP about employment though, who seems stuck for other reasons.

Yes, sorry to overgeneralize.   I'm sure CCs and fields withing the CC system are just as varied as other parts of academia.  I dont have much experience with CCs, so my information comes pretty much from this single source.

That being said, where they are the PhD is not required and some within the institution prefer to hire MAs instead.  I suspect this is linked to people like Hamburger who dont actually want to teach at a CC and are only doing so as a stepping stone.  They have likely been burned enough times to recognize that this is an issue, and the PhD really dosnt mean much in respect to teaching ability. 

I assume there are external pressures to have PhD level instructors (good marketing and such) and if all else is equal between two candidates they would hire the PhD, but as a candidate it is important to realize that simply showing up with a PhD doesnt necessarily make you more qualified to teach at a CC.   

[downer]

Those seem like big generalizations about CCs. There's a lot of variation. I suspect that the one where I teach would not look at candidates for tenure track positions if they didn't have a PhD. Indeed, I think a large majority of the adjunct faculty in my dept have PhDs. While the focus is teaching, they still value some research.

That's not to offer any hope to the OP about employment though, who seems stuck for other reasons.

Yes, sorry to overgeneralize.   I'm sure CCs and fields withing the CC system are just as varied as other parts of academia.  I dont have much experience with CCs, so my information comes pretty much from this single source.

That being said, where they are the PhD is not required and some within the institution prefer to hire MAs instead.  I suspect this is linked to people like Hamburger who dont actually want to teach at a CC and are only doing so as a stepping stone.  They have likely been burned enough times to recognize that this is an issue, and the PhD really dosnt mean much in respect to teaching ability. 

I assume there are external pressures to have PhD level instructors (good marketing and such) and if all else is equal between two candidates they would hire the PhD, but as a candidate it is important to realize that simply showing up with a PhD doesnt necessarily make you more qualified to teach at a CC.

I'd agree with all that.

On the other hand, it would be strange to have a dept chair at a CC (at least in most fields) without a PhD. So you would generally expect anyone who was going to be a candidate for chair (any tenured faculty) would have a PhD.

It is an empirical question whether people with PhDs are better or worse teachers than people without them. But I doubt there is any good data on it.

[polly_mer]

I've known tenured full professors at non-CCs who didn't have a PhD.  The professor who taught Calc I at my alma mater was chair of the department, tenured full, and had an MA.

It's hard to get enough research chops without doing a PhD.

It's not that hard to be an excellent undergrad teacher without even a graduate degree.  A very memorable session at the HLC annual meeting was explaining how many first-year grad students were teaching, not just grading and perhaps giving one guest lecture, but were given a book, a syllabus, and a class roster with a hearty "good luck with the semester!" to have full control over every class session.  The HLC representatives insisted that never happened and about half the attendees had first-hand knowledge.

[Kron3007]

I've known tenured full professors at non-CCs who didn't have a PhD.  The professor who taught Calc I at my alma mater was chair of the department, tenured full, and had an MA.

It's hard to get enough research chops without doing a PhD.

It's not that hard to be an excellent undergrad teacher without even a graduate degree.  A very memorable session at the HLC annual meeting was explaining how many first-year grad students were teaching, not just grading and perhaps giving one guest lecture, but were given a book, a syllabus, and a class roster with a hearty "good luck with the semester!" to have full control over every class session.  The HLC representatives insisted that never happened and about half the attendees had first-hand knowledge.

Yes, if the only goal of a university was teaching undergrads it is questionable that professors would all need PhDs.  From my understanding, decades ago not all professors did have PhDs, and this shift is likely a result of the increased PhD output and an increasing shift toward research mandates. It now seems unheard of to have professors without a PhD, but I believe this is a relatively recent construct.

[polly_mer]

In some fields that have excellent career possibilities with a bachelor's degree and practitioner master's degrees are common, few of the professors outside the elite institutions have PhDs.

Instead, it's much more common for folks to be professionals in the field, pick up a master's degree mid-career, do some adjuncting alongside the day job, and then use the adjunct experience to get a full-time academic job during which they get the PhD if required for tenure.

That's how Super Dinky had nursing, criminal justice, business, and social work faculty.  Multiple nursing faculty who performed heroic feats to finish the PhD while working full-time with small children were quite angry about TT folks in other departments who were converted to non-TT infinite renewal contracts instead being denied tenure when it was clear that PhD would not be completed in time.

Even now, low-prestige places will hire TT MFA, MBA, and MS CS because that's the way to get anyone for certain specialties that have high student demand and low faculty supply.

[spork]

I've known tenured full professors at non-CCs who didn't have a PhD.  The professor who taught Calc I at my alma mater was chair of the department, tenured full, and had an MA.

It's hard to get enough research chops without doing a PhD.

It's not that hard to be an excellent undergrad teacher without even a graduate degree.  A very memorable session at the HLC annual meeting was explaining how many first-year grad students were teaching, not just grading and perhaps giving one guest lecture, but were given a book, a syllabus, and a class roster with a hearty "good luck with the semester!" to have full control over every class session.  The HLC representatives insisted that never happened and about half the attendees had first-hand knowledge.

Happened to me in my R1 doctoral program. The GTAs didn't assist anyone. Each of us taught a course.

At my current employer (not a community college), we have an abundance of faculty members who do not have PhDs. MFAs, MBAs, master's in nursing, etc.

I have also encountered community college campuses where instructors in purely academic departments (in contrast to, for example, automotive repair) overwhelmingly had PhDs. But they thought of themselves as teachers, not researchers, not "I'll just be here a year or two before finding a better job elsewhere," and definitely not "I'm a self-proclaimed superstar in a bleeding edge field and therefore deserve a full-time, high-paying job that doesn't involve interacting with the masses."

[Myword]

Furthermore, there are no guarantees or expectations that you can keep the job at a CC[ even with good evals and following all their picky rules. You can be very conscientious and still get no courses or maybe one. I know because I taught at 3 CCs. I was at one for about 13 years with few full time jobs open. They hired women between 32-50. No minorities.
    I noticed no difference in academic skills between CC and university/4 yr college students. Performance the same every year, maybe because the university was almost open admissions. Having a Ph.D. made little difference in pay or respect. Its been said that the great writers and geniuses could not hold a job without good evals.