Georgetown Law Professor: Student Edition

[Wahoo Redux]

This seems to be one of those subjects that most posters want to avoid and a couple of us flock to, nevertheless...

This is the The Hoya, Georgetown's student newspaper, and its response to the law school controversy.

GU Black Students, Faculty Demand Systemic Change Following Racist Remarks by GU Law Professor.

Among the statements of the writer:

Georgetown University Law Center students are calling for structural reform within the Law Center after a viral video revealed a law professor voicing racist views about Black students.

***

In the video, Sellers made several racist comments about Black students who have taken her and Batson's class.

Were these "racist views" or badly worded statements in a private conversation that went public?

Interestingly:

In the statement released March 11, BLSA demanded the immediate termination of Sellers and a commitment from the university to improve its current grading system, including an audit of Seller's past grading, and the hiring of more Black professors.

GULC currently implements a mandatory curve in its grading, which allows conscious and unconscious systemic bias in its grading system, historically enabling professors to grade Black students subjectively, according to the statement.

And:

"The difference is that Sellers was caught and her racism was broadcast for the world to see," the statement reads. "These racist statements reveal not only Sellers' beliefs about Black students in her classes, but also how her racist thoughts have translated to racist actions. Professor Sellers's bias has impacted the grades of Black students in her classes historically, in her own words."

Anybody have anything to say?

[mahagonny]

Dershowitz and John McWhorter have good things to say about this if you google them.
Somebody needs to stand up to the students and say 'shut up if you're just going to spew emotional non-arguments. Speak if you have something well grounded to say but not before.'
It's not really entirely the students' fault that they are jumping to erroneous conclusions about racism and white people. They are taking their cues from the exalted big timers on the scene, Ibram X Kendi, et al. Higher education itself is to blame.
The power differential irony is a joke. The students imagine two white adjuncts having more power than the mob of black and white students riding the crest of the 2021 faux-social justice wave.
Sellers has been unjustifiably humiliated, but being a successful attorney she probably won't starve. I'd love it if the came back sith a lawsuit though. Same for the male faculty member. As for him, he could argue, if he's a Christian, that his religion prevents him from casting stones at other sinners.
Here's a solution: call their bluff. Get rid of everyone in the law school staff who isn't black. Then in four years look at the GPA's of the students by race. Is there a discrepancy? If yes, solve it if you can. If you can't, admit you were wrong. If you can, also admit you were wrong.

[Sun_Worshiper]

What is there to say? The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

[dismalist]

Interestingly, from the Hoya citation, the Black Law Student Association claims that grading on a curve discriminates against black students. [How, is beyond me.] In response, the administration has implemented a "fair and compassionate" grading system.

Qui bono? Clearly, the accusation of racism is being used as a device to shake down the school -- for grades. What does that mean for the future? It means individuals' could not be distinguished by performance in school, but only by race. Hence, it will be assumed by employers that, on average, Black performance was low, but disguised. To then prevent employers from exercising hiring discretion, affirmative action will have to be turned into an explicit, legally enforced, quota system.

I suppose many would welcome such an outcome. I actually wouldn't mind if the quota rights were tradable. :-)

[marshwiggle]

"The difference is that Sellers was caught and her racism was broadcast for the world to see," the statement reads. "These racist statements reveal not only Sellers' beliefs about Black students in her classes, but also how her racist thoughts have translated to racist actions. Professor Sellers's bias has impacted the grades of Black students in her classes historically, in her own words."

Anybody have anything to say?

Are there any statistics on the bar exam for Georgetown graduates? Presumably, that should be unbiased, or at least it won't be the bias of any specific faculty member(s). 

[mahagonny]

The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

I'm not surprised. They weren't told exactly. They were eavesdropping. When the class hour is over, the student should leave the zoom meeting. That said, it is not pleasant to hear that you're in the bottom half of the class, but how would it be that you don't already know? And how is it that being a college student shouldn't involve anything unpleasant?
It may be that their educational experience prior to being admitted to the law school was weaker and also the school may have done them a disservice by admitting them. Those parts of it would get my sympathy. But...
Also, they didn't merely express that they were upset. They asked for heads on a platter, they got them, they got apologies, that didn't matter, they still want the heads. And they're not done yet. They demand more. If this is how they respond to a a little rough and tumble in the world of being a student, who would want such a crybaby for a defense lawyer? Pathetic. Lawyering is not for sissies.
They don't have a solution in mind either, as much noise as they make.
Strictly speaking, different groups of people performing at different rates or levels of success isn't necessarily something to be solved; it's what we should expect. But the professor had a problem in that given enough time, someone would notice that the black students were weaker and she would be targeted. Admitting students who are not qualified is a disservice to everyone.

What is there to say?

Apathy is a great time saver isn't it?

[Wahoo Redux]

What is there to say? The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

Is it really that simple?  With all due respect, that is a pretty facile response. 

This is kind of the thing: is it true that African-American students struggle more than students from different racial groups at Georgetown Law School?  Shouldn't two law professors be able to discuss this?

Today my wife and I were talking about the differences in performance between different demographics at our open-enrollment urban teaching university.  We've had the conversation before, only the two of us and only at home.  ​The differences in GPA, graduation rates, and anecdotal experiences are stark between different racial groups. 

And just to be clear, it has nothing to do with the amount of melatonin in the first microns in our students' skins and everything to do with the history of white privilege, red-lining, systematic racism, and the resulting inequities in family income, location, and public schooling.  Nor, to be clear, does any one demographic or group have the market on poor performance.  Still, there are the numbers...

On another thread we have been talking about a similar iteration of PC penalization.  The two professors in question were having what they thought was a private, professional discussion.  Why should the school penalize them for this?

[jimbogumbo]

The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

I'm not surprised. They weren't told exactly. They were eavesdropping. When the class hour is over, the student should leave the zoom meeting. That said, it is not pleasant to hear that you're in the bottom half of the class, but how would it be that you don't already know? And how is it that being a college student shouldn't involve anything unpleasant?
It may be that their educational experience prior to being admitted to the law school was weaker and also the school may have done them a disservice by admitting them. Those parts of it would get my sympathy. But...
Also, they didn't merely express that they were upset. They asked for heads on a platter, they got them, they got apologies, that didn't matter, they still want the heads. And they're not done yet. They demand more. If this is how they respond to a a little rough and tumble in the world of being a student, who would want such a crybaby for a defense lawyer? Pathetic. Lawyering is not for sissies.
They don't have a solution in mind either, as much noise as they make.
Strictly speaking, different groups of people performing at different rates or levels of success isn't necessarily something to be solved; it's what we should expect. But the professor had a problem in that given enough time, someone would notice that the black students were weaker and she would be targeted. Admitting students who are not qualified is a disservice to everyone.

What is there to say?

Apathy is a great time saver isn't it?

re the bolded part. Not what was reported. The original stories said the longer discussion was part of the recorded lecture.

[marshwiggle]

What is there to say? The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

Is it really that simple?  With all due respect, that is a pretty facile response. 

This is kind of the thing: is it true that African-American students struggle more than students from different racial groups at Georgetown Law School?  Shouldn't two law professors be able to discuss this?

It's interesting to note that there never seems to have even been a suggestion of comparing the performance of students in Seller's class with their performance in other classes. If her racism was responsible for black students doing worse in her class, then it would be likely that in classes taught by other instructors things would be different. The fact that such a thing didn't get done suggests that it wouldn't have shown her to be an outlier.

What if, instead of noting a racial group near the bottom, she had noticed students from a particular (non-black) high school? Or students who came from a particular part of the country? Or anything else non-racial. Would such an observation based on any factor be equally deserving of firing? If not, why would some other factor be worth examining for better understanding?

[Sun_Worshiper]

What is there to say? The professor said something that could easily be interpreted as racist (whether it was an innocent and poorly worded statement or not) and black students are upset. Not sure why it is surprising to you that black students don't like being told that they aren't as good as their peers.

Is it really that simple?  With all due respect, that is a pretty facile response. 

This is kind of the thing: is it true that African-American students struggle more than students from different racial groups at Georgetown Law School? Shouldn't two law professors be able to discuss this?

Today my wife and I were talking about the differences in performance between different demographics at our open-enrollment urban teaching university.  We've had the conversation before, only the two of us and only at home.  ​The differences in GPA, graduation rates, and anecdotal experiences are stark between different racial groups. 

And just to be clear, it has nothing to do with the amount of melatonin in the first microns in our students' skins and everything to do with the history of white privilege, red-lining, systematic racism, and the resulting inequities in family income, location, and public schooling.  Nor, to be clear, does any one demographic or group have the market on poor performance.  Still, there are the numbers...

On another thread we have been talking about a similar iteration of PC penalization.  The two professors in question were having what they thought was a private, professional discussion.  Why should the school penalize them for this?

You say all this as though the professors were discussing the findings of a systematic data analysis, as opposed to an off the cuff observation by one professor. I watched the video and while I don't think it was a capital offense, I do think that the offending professor offered an ignorant and shallow analysis based on anecdotal observations that shouldn't cut it in an professional academic setting.

Anyway, my point in the post was simply that it is not surprising that black students at the university are annoyed by the video. What did you expect the black student group to say? "What a great analysis by Prof. so-and-so, Gtown law offers such a supportive environment!"

[Wahoo Redux]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

[dismalist]

Anyway, my point in the post was simply that it is not surprising that black students at the university are annoyed by the video. What did you expect the black student group to say?

We want higher grades?

[mahagonny]

If her racism was responsible for black students doing worse in her class, then it would be likely that in classes taught by other instructors things would be different. The fact that such a thing didn't get done suggests that it wouldn't have shown her to be an outlier.

Well wasn't she doing the normal thing already that one would do when curious by asking around? Someone has to care.

Anyway, my point in the post was simply that it is not surprising that black students at the university are annoyed by the video. What did you expect the black student group to say?

We want higher grades?

Prof. Sellers also wanted them to get higher grades.

Sellers:

"I want all my students to excel in negotiation and mediation, which is why I have taught these courses at Georgetown for almost 20 years," the letter read. "When this does not occur, it reflects shortcomings on my part, not just on the part of any single student."

So she wants to resign. How long has the school been tolerating weak performing students, I wonder? Does it take an adjunct who doesn't need the money and has no path to promotion or a salary bump to spill the beans? You know, adjuncts, those people who 'have no investment in the long term success of the institution'. Gosh darn it, she sure sounds like she cares. So she lies down and takes the flogging. Great victory, students.

A racist wouldn't have said 'it drives me crazy that the black students are almost aways doing worse.' They would have said 'sure they do worse. They're not as smart. Where shall we go for lunch?'
Being black at a college that doesn't have special support for first generation students is considered a hardship that everyone's heart should bleed over, while being called racist for doing your temp job conscientiously is considered part of the job, long as you can keep it. Teaching while white.
Don't get me started...

[dismalist]

"When this does not occur, it reflects shortcomings on my part, not just on the part of any single student."

Good he resigned, then. This is totally moronic.

[mahagonny]

"When this does not occur, it reflects shortcomings on my part, not just on the part of any single student."

Good he resigned, then. This is totally moronic.

Adjuncts are typically required to maintain a high score of student approval. If that's the situation there, her resigning doesn't solve anything.