Georgetown Law Professor: Student Edition

[dismalist]

"When this does not occur, it reflects shortcomings on my part, not just on the part of any single student."

Good he resigned, then. This is totally moronic.

Adjuncts are typically required to maintain a high score of student approval. If that's the situation there, her resigning doesn't solve anything.

There was a problem before?

[Sun_Worshiper]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

[dismalist]

The lovely, really lovely, aspect of this event and this discussion its that it relates to an institution whose attendees can only be described as privileged in the contemporary argot.

What happens there matters little for those there now, but it does matter as a signal for Black achievement, which will no longer be recorded.

[mahagonny]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

The tenure track wants due process for tenured faculty, but wants adjunct faculty to be eliminated. Therefore a scenario where something has appeared to have gone poorly while being staffed by an adjunct is a win for the prospects of fortifying the tenure track. An adjunct getting shafted, sacrificed is a good.
The basic thing is adjunct and tenure track are not mutually supporting. They are mutually undermining.

If I'm wrong about that, the tenured faculty at Georgetown will come along any minute now and scream 'hold it! You violated your own policy. You can't terminate a professor in the middle of the semester unless they are a physical threat to the students.' They won't. They care about themselves, that's all.

"When this does not occur, it reflects shortcomings on my part, not just on the part of any single student."

Good he resigned, then. This is totally moronic.

Adjuncts are typically required to maintain a high score of student approval. If that's the situation there, her resigning doesn't solve anything.

There was a problem before?

Or she's been inflating the grades to keep the wolf from the door.

[Wahoo Redux]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

[mahagonny]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

Anything that a member of an historically marginalized persecuted or disadvantaged group says makes them uncomfortable, even if they are not currently marginalized, persecuted or disadvantaged.
Another layer of irony, while this is all going open nearly everywhere, white people are being asked to undergo training sessions or take courses in which they will be made to feel uncomfortable for their own benefit. 'White fragility' 'difficult conversations' etc. However I suspect they make certain academics quite comfortable if it means more research consumed, more books sold.

[marshwiggle]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

This all comes down to the fact that it got recorded. Would anyone actually argue that what she said would be offensive in a private conversation with a colleague, which is what she thought it was?

[Sun_Worshiper]

Well, I am retreading territory from another thread...

But the point is that both professors are pilloried and fired / forced out for commentary which, while obviously not peer-reviewed, was a professional conversation and an opinion based on firsthand observation.

The students may not have appreciated what the profs said, but why should either of them lose their jobs over a simple comment?  One prof actually didn't say anything, she simply didn't object.  How delicate are these students?  They sound like the "snowflakes" of conservaloon ideology.

It seems obvious to me that the Georgetown community made a stereotypically hysterical response.

It also seems obvious to me that we are allowing corporate entities, in this case a college, to police what we say and think, even if the opinion in this case is germane to the university.  I'm scared to have an opinion on certain subjects, as I assume you and everyone else here is, and this is a frightening thing.

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

You really don't see why black students find it offensive when a professor says that they constantly underperform, and does so on the basis of evidence that we would tell high school students isn't sufficient?

[marshwiggle]

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

You really don't see why black students find it offensive when a professor says that they constantly underperform, and does so on the basis of evidence that we would tell high school students isn't sufficient?

Just to be clear:

• She "said" it in what she believed to be a private conversation.
• She did not provide "sufficient evidence" for any sort of action, since she was merely making an observation. (And presumably the grades in her course would indeed support her observation.)
• I doubt the black students who were doing well in her course would have been nearly as offended as the ones who were doing poorly. (She acknowledged that there were black students doing quite well.) No-one likes to know they are near the bottom of a class, even if they have been skipping classes, not handing things in, etc. If a student is "offended" that they failed a course because they didn't do the work, is that grounds for some sort of apology from the instructor?

[Wahoo Redux]

You really don't see why black students find it offensive when a professor says that they constantly underperform, and does so on the basis of evidence that we would tell high school students isn't sufficient?

I hate to admit, but I agree with Marshwiggle.

This was not a conference presentation or a scheduled talk.  Both professors were having what they thought was a private conversation (a conversation I have had in the privacy of my own home) based on their experiences.

Would they have been fired if, for instance, they talked about the performance of their dean or the basketball team?

The students demand that the school changes its grading based on an off-the-cuff comment.  Ridiculous.

And what is the performance of AA students in the Georgia Law School?  I guarantee we will never know.

What's problematic is A) the extent of student reaction, which verges on hysteria, and B) that someone is punished (which is the right word) for having a personal opinion.

I'll say what I've said elsewhere: our department might be facing a minority candidate who simply has not met the requirements for tenured.  I am terrified that my wife will vote her conscience to deny.  This story is a great example of why.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I agree to a point. The school does, of course, have a right to fire someone for saying something offensive at work, and I think people who say offensive things on the job should be held accountable, but we should all want to see due process, including systematic efforts to assess the statements in question.

Of course the school does, but what was "offensive" in what was said?

You really don't see why black students find it offensive when a professor says that they constantly underperform, and does so on the basis of evidence that we would tell high school students isn't sufficient?

Just to be clear:

• She "said" it in what she believed to be a private conversation.
• She did not provide "sufficient evidence" for any sort of action, since she was merely making an observation. (And presumably the grades in her course would indeed support her observation.)
• I doubt the black students who were doing well in her course would have been nearly as offended as the ones who were doing poorly. (She acknowledged that there were black students doing quite well.) No-one likes to know they are near the bottom of a class, even if they have been skipping classes, not handing things in, etc. If a student is "offended" that they failed a course because they didn't do the work, is that grounds for some sort of apology from the instructor?

Cool, glad you've decided that it is no big deal. But, guess what, not everybody sees it through your lens. In particular, the black students who get good grades may not be so understanding as you seem to think they should be. They might, in fact, be annoyed that the professor is generalizing about black students.

I also wonder if you actually don't see the difference between (1) a student failing a course and being upset and (2) a professor declaring that black students aren't as good as their peers. The question you ask at the end suggests that you see these two things as identical.

Finally, just because someone believes something, based on their observations, doesn't make it valid or credible. Lots of observations are plagued by bias, which is why we need systematic data analysis to draw professional conclusions.

[Sun_Worshiper]

You really don't see why black students find it offensive when a professor says that they constantly underperform, and does so on the basis of evidence that we would tell high school students isn't sufficient?

I hate to admit, but I agree with Marshwiggle.

This was not a conference presentation or a scheduled talk.  Both professors were having what they thought was a private conversation (a conversation I have had in the privacy of my own home) based on their experiences.

Would they have been fired if, for instance, they talked about the performance of their dean or the basketball team?

The students demand that the school changes its grading based on an off-the-cuff comment.  Ridiculous.

And what is the performance of AA students in the Georgia Law School?  I guarantee we will never know.

What's problematic is A) the extent of student reaction, which verges on hysteria, and B) that someone is punished (which is the right word) for having a personal opinion.

I'll say what I've said elsewhere: our department might be facing a minority candidate who simply has not met the requirements for tenured.  I am terrified that my wife will vote her conscience to deny.  This story is a great example of why.

Some conversations you have in the privacy of your own home are not appropriate for the workplace.

And I never said the school should fire the professors, just explaining why some black students at Gtown find her comments offensive, since some in this thread seem genuinely to not understand why this would bother them.

Does your wife plan to include a statement in her vote explaining that minority candidates in general are weaker scholars/teachers than white men? If not, then I don't think she has anything to worry about.

[marshwiggle]

Just to be clear:

• She "said" it in what she believed to be a private conversation.
• She did not provide "sufficient evidence" for any sort of action, since she was merely making an observation. (And presumably the grades in her course would indeed support her observation.)
• I doubt the black students who were doing well in her course would have been nearly as offended as the ones who were doing poorly. (She acknowledged that there were black students doing quite well.) No-one likes to know they are near the bottom of a class, even if they have been skipping classes, not handing things in, etc. If a student is "offended" that they failed a course because they didn't do the work, is that grounds for some sort of apology from the instructor?

Cool, glad you've decided that it is no big deal. But, guess what, not everybody sees it through your lens. In particular, the black students who get good grades may not be so understanding as you seem to think they should be. They might, in fact, be annoyed that the professor is generalizing about black students.

She wasn't generalizing about black students. She specifically said that there were some who did quite well. She was concerned about the cluster of black students near the bottom of the class.

I also wonder if you actually don't see the difference between (1) a student failing a course and being upset and (2) a professor declaring that black students aren't as good as their peers. The question you ask at the end suggests that you see these two things as identical.

Again, she was not saying that black students are inferior; she was saying that a disproportionate number of the weaker students were black.

Covid-19 does not kill all old people. However, a disproportionate number of victims of Covid-19 are old.

Finally, just because someone believes something, based on their observations, doesn't make it valid or credible. Lots of observations are plagued by bias, which is why we need systematic data analysis to draw professional conclusions.

How is it not "valid or credible" that there is a trend in the grades IN.HER.COURSE?????????

She didn't make any sort of global statement about black students, or black law students, or even black law students at Georgetown. She made an observation about the performance of people in her own course specifically.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Just to be clear:

• She "said" it in what she believed to be a private conversation.
• She did not provide "sufficient evidence" for any sort of action, since she was merely making an observation. (And presumably the grades in her course would indeed support her observation.)
• I doubt the black students who were doing well in her course would have been nearly as offended as the ones who were doing poorly. (She acknowledged that there were black students doing quite well.) No-one likes to know they are near the bottom of a class, even if they have been skipping classes, not handing things in, etc. If a student is "offended" that they failed a course because they didn't do the work, is that grounds for some sort of apology from the instructor?

Cool, glad you've decided that it is no big deal. But, guess what, not everybody sees it through your lens. In particular, the black students who get good grades may not be so understanding as you seem to think they should be. They might, in fact, be annoyed that the professor is generalizing about black students.

She wasn't generalizing about black students. She specifically said that there were some who did quite well. She was concerned about the cluster of black students near the bottom of the class.

I also wonder if you actually don't see the difference between (1) a student failing a course and being upset and (2) a professor declaring that black students aren't as good as their peers. The question you ask at the end suggests that you see these two things as identical.

Again, she was not saying that black students are inferior; she was saying that a disproportionate number of the weaker students were black.

Covid-19 does not kill all old people. However, a disproportionate number of victims of Covid-19 are old.

Finally, just because someone believes something, based on their observations, doesn't make it valid or credible. Lots of observations are plagued by bias, which is why we need systematic data analysis to draw professional conclusions.

How is it not "valid or credible" that there is a trend in the grades IN.HER.COURSE?????????

She didn't make any sort of global statement about black students, or black law students, or even black law students at Georgetown. She made an observation about the performance of people in her own course specifically.

One can generalize about blacks and then say "but not all blacks." And she did actually say that black students do not perform as well as their peers, and contrary to your suggestion it doesn't appear that she based this on a systematic reexamining of her gradebooks from years past.

And you can type at me in all caps if it makes you feel better, but I'm merely explaining to you why some folks are offended. You can insist that she did nothing wrong and that the people who are upset shouldn't be, or you can try to understand where black students are coming from (even if you ultimately think they, or the university, are overreacting).

[marshwiggle]

One can generalize about blacks and then say "but not all blacks." And she did actually say that black students do not perform as well as their peers, and contrary to your suggestion it doesn't appear that she based this on a systematic reexamining of her gradebooks from years past.

So had she said, "Between 2015 and 2020, 80% of the black students in my course have had final grades  in the bottom 20% of the class" (or whatever), would that have been OK? Is the problem really that it wasn't a statistically testable claim based on clearly documented criteria?

And you can type at me in all caps if it makes you feel better, but I'm merely explaining to you why some folks are offended. You can insist that she did nothing wrong and that the people who are upset shouldn't be, or you can try to understand where black students are coming from (even if you ultimately think they, or the university, are overreacting).

The problem is not that some people were offended; it's that the university fell all over themselves to throw the professor under the bus. (And for a law school, instead of considering whether the evidence supported what the prof said, they just shot the messenger.)

And if a prof in some conservative region got fired for saying to a colleague that "Black lives matter", would that just be the university "overreacting"?