Faculty Policing Each Other

[clean]

Why not just scroll on by rather than snide comments?

That is what I generally do when I see a post by Mahagonny.  Im happier since I started that practice.  Unfortunately, I read the post before noting the source of this thread.

[little bongo]

https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2021/04/02/recommendations-stopping-anti-asian-racism-campuses-opinion

"Recognize that language is an intimate and deeply personal form of communication. The way people speak and the language that they prefer to speak in are often crucial facets of their identity. So avoid comments that convey judgment or impute value around Asian people's fluency in English, even if said as a compliment. When you see others remarking on community members' fluency in English or their "lack of accent," inform those individuals that this not acceptable. Ask them to reflect on whether they would offer the same observation to someone who is not Asian or a person of color."
Any thoughts?

I didn't read the article, only the quote.  The quote is humorous.  Such a simplistic attempt to generalize, it's silly.  I'll say what, when, and to whom I want, according to my values and judgments regarding appropriate conduct.

I work with many students for whom English is not their first language.  Many are insecure/embarrassed/concerned about their English communication skills and "confess" such to me directly.  In some cases, their English is quite good and easy to understand.  In other cases, I've seen students improve dramatically over a semester or two.  When I say "your English is very good, I appreciate your comments in class" or "Your English has really improved, you're doing great!" their faces light up with joy and gratitude and they express sincere thanks for the compliments.  Priceless to see the impact a few nice words can have on another person.

Disrespectful of people to call out Mahagonny for posting higher ed news items in a higher ed forum.  Looks like all are not welcome here.  Why not just scroll on by rather than snide comments?

Well, as to "policing," it's more a matter of tact, context, common sense, and plain old good manners. Speaking to students who clearly want to improve their English--not much to argue about there. Faculty and other professionals about whom you're just making dumb assumptions because of appearance? I think the difference is pretty clear.

Mahagonny has something of a history, and people hit the "snide" button here pretty quickly. I've done it myself here and there; I probably shouldn't have. Sometimes I think the fora should be retitled: "The Fora: A Snide Community." There are two people who have posted whom I happily ignore (NOT Mahagonny, who I think is genuinely questing, if a bit damp behind the ears), and the fora experience for me has greatly improved. Other than that--just trying to do that whole "be the change you want to see" thing.

[mahagonny]

https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2021/04/02/recommendations-stopping-anti-asian-racism-campuses-opinion

"Recognize that language is an intimate and deeply personal form of communication. The way people speak and the language that they prefer to speak in are often crucial facets of their identity. So avoid comments that convey judgment or impute value around Asian people's fluency in English, even if said as a compliment. When you see others remarking on community members' fluency in English or their "lack of accent," inform those individuals that this not acceptable. Ask them to reflect on whether they would offer the same observation to someone who is not Asian or a person of color."
Any thoughts?

I didn't read the article, only the quote.  The quote is humorous.  Such a simplistic attempt to generalize, it's silly.  I'll say what, when, and to whom I want, according to my values and judgments regarding appropriate conduct.

I work with many students for whom English is not their first language.  Many are insecure/embarrassed/concerned about their English communication skills and "confess" such to me directly.  In some cases, their English is quite good and easy to understand.  In other cases, I've seen students improve dramatically over a semester or two.  When I say "your English is very good, I appreciate your comments in class" or "Your English has really improved, you're doing great!" their faces light up with joy and gratitude and they express sincere thanks for the compliments.  Priceless to see the impact a few nice words can have on another person.

Disrespectful of people to call out Mahagonny for posting higher ed news items in a higher ed forum.  Looks like all are not welcome here.  Why not just scroll on by rather than snide comments?

Agree, and why do people assume because an author has an Asian surname that he or she has been appointed spokesperson for all Asians studying in the USA? It's like Joe Biden telling someone he's not black. Like, Jason Riley would have something to say about that.
I have complemented people on, more frequently, not the quality of their speech, but the fact that they are bilingual. I have asked people where they are from (another thing some of the wokelings forbid), how many languages they speak in total (sometimes it's even three!) and learned a lot thereby. I call it 'making friends.' I've learned a lot in the process too. I have also told students when their English is not good enough, with the result that they got much needed help. I had a student from Korea who used present tense for everything. 'I don't come to class last, week; I am sick.' Would I be doing him a favor by letting this continue without a comment?

What we're suggesting is that those identifications may not always be correct. A person may appear to you to be such language-learning striver, but is in fact just some Asian-American kid from Peoria who has a speech impediment. When you compliment them on their English, they don't hear a compliment. They hear another reminder that they don't look like someone who speaks English, and that their attempt to work past a speech impediment was not successful. Of course, that's not what you intended to say--you had no idea they had a speech impediment, and you only intended to be encouraging. But the encouragement was built on a false premise, so what they hear is: 'you don't look like you're from around here; you don't sound like you're a native English speaker; and I feel entitled to comment on it.'

How do you know what they hear?

Why not just scroll on by rather than snide comments?

That is what I generally do when I see a post by Mahagonny.  Im happier since I started that practice.  Unfortunately, I read the post before noting the source of this thread.

Full of shit much?

[clean]

Full of shit much?

No, you seem pretty full of it, most of the time.
But Party on.  there is little to keep me coming back to this thread.

[ergative]

What we're suggesting is that those identifications may not always be correct. A person may appear to you to be such language-learning striver, but is in fact just some Asian-American kid from Peoria who has a speech impediment. When you compliment them on their English, they don't hear a compliment. They hear another reminder that they don't look like someone who speaks English, and that their attempt to work past a speech impediment was not successful. Of course, that's not what you intended to say--you had no idea they had a speech impediment, and you only intended to be encouraging. But the encouragement was built on a false premise, so what they hear is: 'you don't look like you're from around here; you don't sound like you're a native English speaker; and I feel entitled to comment on it.'

How do you know what they hear?

Because they tell us what they hear and I listen to them.

[Cheerful]

Perhaps some people are too sensitive and self-centered.  Lighten up, folks.  Not everyone is ignorant, malicious, racist, with bad motives.  Many are well-meaning.  Not every statement uttered by someone else must be perfectly aligned with one's preferences.

[smallcleanrat]

I'm actually not seeing a statement in this particular article about "turning in" anybody. Sounds like they are talking about making a quick comment to a colleague if you observe that colleague doing something racially insensitive.

Not saying that doesn't have its own issues, just pointing out it's not quite on the level of hauling the colleague in for some kind of tribunal.

And I know that the rhetoric from some people seems to split the world into only two factions: woke people and white supremacists, but I don't see that in this specific article. I'm not sure I agree with every suggestion on the list, but the emphasis does seem to be on making people aware of behaviors that can contribute to feelings of alienation. That doesn't have to assume malicious intent, just lack of awareness.

People bring up the "Where are you from?" question a lot as an example. In my experience, the issue isn't the question itself (it's a fairly common get-to-know-you query after all), but how the answer is received. If someone answers truthfully "Chicago" or "Toronto" it's irritating to hear "No, I mean where are you *really* from?" If the person could just say, "Oh, Chicago! I have family there!" or something, it's not an issue.

I've seen conversations like this lead to a chain of questions:
-"I'm *really* from Toronto. Born and raised."
-"Hmm. Ok, well where are your parents from?"
-"Dad's from Michigan, Mom's from Massachusetts."
-"*sigh* OK, but what's your background?"
-"..."
-"I mean, what type of Oriental are you?"

This can lead to some weirdly detailed probing of the person's family background (including questions about whether they were adopted, which is well beyond ice-breaker territory).

I've experienced plenty of uncomfortable moments, and I've never come away from them thinking "Wow, that person's obviously a white supremacist." My thoughts are more along the lines of "er...why are they doing this...?"

There have only been a few times in my entire life I ever thought of complaining (though ultimately I didn't):

1) when being approached by multiple male students saying, "Hey! We give you five dollah, you sucky sucky?"

2) when a therapist said "I would normally call your parents' behavior abusive, but I don't want to be insensitive, since that might be part of their culture." (It's not...)

3) when a teacher ("just making an observation") said that Asian people ("not all, just, you know, a lot of them") have no personality or imagination and thus rarely become great artists or musicians or writers ("just copycats")

I wouldn't have wanted to see any of these people get in real trouble, but if one of their peers had tapped them on the shoulder at some point to say, "Hey, that *may* have come across in ways you didn't intend." would that have been so horrible?

[Puget]

1) when being approached by multiple male students saying, "Hey! We give you five dollah, you sucky sucky?"

2) when a therapist said "I would normally call your parents' behavior abusive, but I don't want to be insensitive, since that might be part of their culture." (It's not...)

3) when a teacher ("just making an observation") said that Asian people ("not all, just, you know, a lot of them") have no personality or imagination and thus rarely become great artists or musicians or writers ("just copycats")

I wouldn't have wanted to see any of these people get in real trouble, but if one of their peers had tapped them on the shoulder at some point to say, "Hey, that *may* have come across in ways you didn't intend." would that have been so horrible?

I think the bolded only applies to #2. #1 and 3 definitely were knowingly and willfully being offensive and I would want them to get in real trouble on your behalf! Not OK! And they have no right not to be made uncomfortable by being called out on it.

I hope to be a good enough ally to call people out on this crap as needed, and I hope if I do say something unintentionally offensive or othering that people will let me know. If some people want to call that policing than so be it.

[mahagonny]

Not saying that doesn't have its own issues, just pointing out it's not quite on the level of hauling the colleague in for some kind of tribunal.

And I know that the rhetoric from some people seems to split the world into only two factions: woke people and white supremacists, but I don't see that in this specific article. I'm not sure I agree with every suggestion on the list, but the emphasis does seem to be on making people aware of behaviors that can contribute to feelings of alienation. That doesn't have to assume malicious intent, just lack of awareness.

But even assuming they are not intentionally promulgating that view their blind spot is failing to see that being told by the media and others that America is full of white supremacists is an obvious reason for non-whites to feel alienated, and it is the wokesters who are doing it. So, while they might think they are doing good, they are not doing what they think they are doing.

I'm actually not seeing a statement in this particular article about "turning in" anybody. Sounds like they are talking about making a quick comment to a colleague if you observe that colleague doing something racially insensitive.

I hope to be a good enough ally to call people out on this crap*as needed, and I hope if I do say something unintentionally offensive or othering that people will let me know. If some people want to call that policing than so be it.

Doesn't take long for the right people to show up, does it?

*complementing a student on their ability to express themselves

[mahagonny]

mistake/apology to small clean rat and puget

I didn't see the unkind comments that puget was responding to. Or maybe I'm tired. Seven hours contact time today  with students.

Strike these lines please:

"Doesn't take long for the right people to show up, does it?

*complementing a student on their ability to express themselves"

[mahagonny]

'Tomorrow is another day' entry:

Smallcleanrat, little bongo, ergative, cheerful, et al, all readers who tried to give this some sober thought or comments, I appreciate it. I don't know that I can discuss it here. There are snipers on the forum. True I do have an emotional side and sometimes the analytical mind gets pushed out of the way on the pseudonymous forum. Making things even worse, my politics don't blend here. I regard the recent self-identified 'antiracist' component of diversity staff, duties, discussion and faculty discourse with a lot of worry. My take on it is often wrongly dismissed as just a vestige of the Trump reign and not legitimate concern. Don't know if it's worth it to try any longer in this venue. Some will be glad if I give up. Fine. Let them enjoy that, and I'll enjoy what I'm doing. My energy can be put to use somewhere.
Take care.

[apl68]

It's unfortunate that the radical and combative rhetoric of certain elements of the anti-racist movement should be so off-putting and confrontational.  Because most of us do have times when we blunderingly say things that needlessly offend or disturb.  We need to be corrected when we do that.  That works so much better when it is done with a measure of grace, and not in the form of a scolding, accusation, or call-out.  People shouldn't be too quick to assume the worst of those who say something foolish in the course of friendly efforts to deal with members of groups that they don't have much personal experience with.  Responding to something like that in a rude or combative manner isn't going to help the cause of racial justice or mutual understanding.  It's only going to become another example of two wrongs failing to make a right.

Mahagonny, that goes both ways.  When somebody comes across as scolding or confrontational to you, try to remember not to assume the worst and lash out.  People who are trying to give needed constructive criticism can blunder too.  Sometimes it's simply a failure to come across the right way, not an effort to police, accuse, or silence.

[Parasaurolophus]

It's unfortunate that the radical and combative rhetoric of certain elements of the anti-racist movement should be so off-putting and confrontational.  Because most of us do have times when we blunderingly say things that needlessly offend or disturb.  We need to be corrected when we do that.  That works so much better when it is done with a measure of grace, and not in the form of a scolding, accusation, or call-out.  People shouldn't be too quick to assume the worst of those who say something foolish in the course of friendly efforts to deal with members of groups that they don't have much personal experience with.  Responding to something like that in a rude or combative manner isn't going to help the cause of racial justice or mutual understanding.  It's only going to become another example of two wrongs failing to make a right.

It's also worth remembering that for some people, those interactions happen every day. You'd be crabby too if you had to deal with it that often. (And, frankly, I think it says something not altogether flattering about one's society when that's the case, even if the infraction itself, in isolation, is relatively minor.)

[eigen]

Perhaps some people are too sensitive and self-centered.  Lighten up, folks.  Not everyone is ignorant, malicious, racist, with bad motives.  Many are well-meaning.  Not every statement uttered by someone else must be perfectly aligned with one's preferences.

IMO, the true test for whether someone is well-meaning is how they react when told that their statement was hurtful or damaging to someone else.

If they were well meaning, they often apologize and keep it in mind for future interactions.

When someone becomes defensive and responds by telling someone to "lighten up" or be less sensitive, then it's a lot harder to infer good intent behind the statements.

[marshwiggle]

It's also worth remembering that for some people, those interactions happen every day. You'd be crabby too if you had to deal with it that often. (And, frankly, I think it says something not altogether flattering about one's society when that's the case, even if the infraction itself, in isolation, is relatively minor.)

I'm curious how many people deal with so many new people each day, and interact sufficiently, to experience "those interactions" every day. Many (most?) people tend to interact mostly with the same people every day, and others who deal with lots of new people every day do so on a very superficial and/or task-related level. It's hard to imagine someone getting comments on their appearance, speech, etc. every day.