MLA’s recommended salaries

[Sun_Worshiper]

While I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable in theory. $75k is well below the average for a person with a professional degree or a PhD. And while it will, at best, only move the needle in a marginal way, these kinds of recommendations can help to establish some best practices.

You haven't lived far enough down the prestige scale and spent time with regional CUPA figures in the hinterlands if you can make that statement.

Did you miss this part of my comment?: "I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land"

Did you miss the part where most of the universities in the US are not R1s?

Where in my posts does it suggest that I missed that?

Look, I'm well aware that there are lots of universities of various types in all parts of the country, and that most universities aren't working with large budgets (and that purchasing power varies by location). I am also aware that supply and demand drives wages. That's why I said that it isn't realistic to expect $75k wages for assistants across the country. However, this is hardly an absurd amount of money for university professors to start at and I think it is appropriate for a professional association to benchmark this as a best practice salary.

[pgher]

While I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable in theory. $75k is well below the average for a person with a professional degree or a PhD. And while it will, at best, only move the needle in a marginal way, these kinds of recommendations can help to establish some best practices.

You haven't lived far enough down the prestige scale and spent time with regional CUPA figures in the hinterlands if you can make that statement.

Did you miss this part of my comment?: "I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land"

Did you miss the part where most of the universities in the US are not R1s?

And in the "hinterlands." $75k in Boston is not nearly the same as $75k in Nowhere, Iowa.

[mleok]

While I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable in theory. $75k is well below the average for a person with a professional degree or a PhD. And while it will, at best, only move the needle in a marginal way, these kinds of recommendations can help to establish some best practices.

You haven't lived far enough down the prestige scale and spent time with regional CUPA figures in the hinterlands if you can make that statement.

Did you miss this part of my comment?: "I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land"

Did you miss the part where most of the universities in the US are not R1s?

Where in my posts does it suggest that I missed that?

Look, I'm well aware that there are lots of universities of various types in all parts of the country, and that most universities aren't working with large budgets (and that purchasing power varies by location). I am also aware that supply and demand drives wages. That's why I said that it isn't realistic to expect $75k wages for assistants across the country. However, this is hardly an absurd amount of money for university professors to start at and I think it is appropriate for a professional association to benchmark this as a best practice salary.

It's so laughably out of line with reality that it is practically useless, and only serves to demonstrate how irrelevant the MLA truly is. It's not as if there is a shortage of potential faculty members in MLA fields, or that there's a non-academic demand for people with PhDs in MLA fields that would allow them to command significant salary premiums. As the following article in the Economist states, this is a short course in supply and demand,

https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb

and that having a PhD often reduces one's employability.

[Sun_Worshiper]

While I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable in theory. $75k is well below the average for a person with a professional degree or a PhD. And while it will, at best, only move the needle in a marginal way, these kinds of recommendations can help to establish some best practices.

You haven't lived far enough down the prestige scale and spent time with regional CUPA figures in the hinterlands if you can make that statement.

Did you miss this part of my comment?: "I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land"

Did you miss the part where most of the universities in the US are not R1s?

And in the "hinterlands." $75k in Boston is not nearly the same as $75k in Nowhere, Iowa.

Yes I know. I noted this in my last post:

Look, I'm well aware that there are lots of universities of various types in all parts of the country, and that most universities aren't working with large budgets (and that purchasing power varies by location). I am also aware that supply and demand drives wages. That's why I said that it isn't realistic to expect $75k wages for assistants across the country. However, this is hardly an absurd amount of money for university professors to start at and I think it is appropriate for a professional association to benchmark this as a best practice salary.

While I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land, I don't think those numbers are unreasonable in theory. $75k is well below the average for a person with a professional degree or a PhD. And while it will, at best, only move the needle in a marginal way, these kinds of recommendations can help to establish some best practices.

You haven't lived far enough down the prestige scale and spent time with regional CUPA figures in the hinterlands if you can make that statement.

Did you miss this part of my comment?: "I see why this is unrealistic outside R1 land"

Did you miss the part where most of the universities in the US are not R1s?

Where in my posts does it suggest that I missed that?

Look, I'm well aware that there are lots of universities of various types in all parts of the country, and that most universities aren't working with large budgets (and that purchasing power varies by location). I am also aware that supply and demand drives wages. That's why I said that it isn't realistic to expect $75k wages for assistants across the country. However, this is hardly an absurd amount of money for university professors to start at and I think it is appropriate for a professional association to benchmark this as a best practice salary.

It's so laughably out of line with reality that it is practically useless, and only serves to demonstrate how irrelevant the MLA truly is. It's not as if there is a shortage of potential faculty members in MLA fields, or that there's a non-academic demand for people with PhDs in MLA fields that would allow them to command significant salary premiums. As the following article in the Economist states, this is a short course in supply and demand,

https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb

and that having a PhD often reduces one's employability.

I am aware of the supply of PhDs, and I often hear that having a PhD reduces one's employability, although I'm not sure the data particularly supports that narrative: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

[mleok]

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

What you call harmless, I call silly and irrelevant. But then, I'm a STEM professor at a R1, so I don't really have skin in this issue.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

As the following article in the Economist states, this is a short course in supply and demand,
https://medium.economist.com/why-doing-a-phd-is-often-a-waste-of-time-349206f9addb
and that having a PhD often reduces one's employability.

I still remember this article from a Christmas issue 10 years ago. It is curious to see that they re-posted it online years after original publication.
While I don't disagree in principle, looking back I can claim that the article fails to report incredible variation in outcomes. This can be a good thing (by enrolling one is not destined to penury), but also a bad thing (averages can be misleading with many people having much worse outcomes). The latter is probably the reason for the discussion about the MLA's recommendation.

[marshwiggle]

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

It's about as useful as setting a national "benchmark" for house price. It will vary so much by region, age, and a zillion other factors that it's only an order-of-magnitude reference.

[Sun_Worshiper]

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

It's about as useful as setting a national "benchmark" for house price. It will vary so much by region, age, and a zillion other factors that it's only an order-of-magnitude reference.

Not if it sets a benchmark for best practices that nudges the needle upwards. We see this in others areas: NGOs suggests best practices for environmental efforts by companies, those recommendations inform companies voluntary environmental programs, and then these become an industry standard, even as some companies don't follow them. Not necessarily saying this will happen here, but you have to think beyond the immediate impact (or lack thereof).

[marshwiggle]

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

It's about as useful as setting a national "benchmark" for house price. It will vary so much by region, age, and a zillion other factors that it's only an order-of-magnitude reference.

Not if it sets a benchmark for best practices that nudges the needle upwards. We see this in others areas: NGOs suggests best practices for environmental efforts by companies, those recommendations inform companies voluntary environmental programs, and then these become an industry standard, even as some companies don't follow them. Not necessarily saying this will happen here, but you have to think beyond the immediate impact (or lack thereof).

A recommended salary isn't the same as a a "best practice". What would be closer to a "best practice" is if they did an analysis to determine the typical ratios of humanities salaries to other disciplines. That might be more uniform across the country, and if so, that could be a useful "benchmark", since it would implicitly incorporate other factors like cost-of-living that have such a big effect on the dollar amount.

[Sun_Worshiper]

In any case, there are a wide range of schools and of course salaries will vary, but setting a general benchmark with the understanding that it won't become the norm in the hinterlands seems pretty harmless to me.

It's about as useful as setting a national "benchmark" for house price. It will vary so much by region, age, and a zillion other factors that it's only an order-of-magnitude reference.

Not if it sets a benchmark for best practices that nudges the needle upwards. We see this in others areas: NGOs suggests best practices for environmental efforts by companies, those recommendations inform companies voluntary environmental programs, and then these become an industry standard, even as some companies don't follow them. Not necessarily saying this will happen here, but you have to think beyond the immediate impact (or lack thereof).

A recommended salary isn't the same as a a "best practice". What would be closer to a "best practice" is if they did an analysis to determine the typical ratios of humanities salaries to other disciplines. That might be more uniform across the country, and if so, that could be a useful "benchmark", since it would implicitly incorporate other factors like cost-of-living that have such a big effect on the dollar amount.

I have no interest in a semantic debate about the term "best practice." The point is that they set a benchmark, which offers general guidance for where they think MLA salaries should be. Cost-of-living, etc. obviously would affect any particular university's adoption of this suggestion.

What you are suggesting would just be identifying the average salary of an MLA AP adjusted for cost of living and other things. That may or may not be a useful exercise but is clearly not what they are trying to do here.

[marshwiggle]

It's about as useful as setting a national "benchmark" for house price. It will vary so much by region, age, and a zillion other factors that it's only an order-of-magnitude reference.

Not if it sets a benchmark for best practices that nudges the needle upwards. We see this in others areas: NGOs suggests best practices for environmental efforts by companies, those recommendations inform companies voluntary environmental programs, and then these become an industry standard, even as some companies don't follow them. Not necessarily saying this will happen here, but you have to think beyond the immediate impact (or lack thereof).

A recommended salary isn't the same as a a "best practice". What would be closer to a "best practice" is if they did an analysis to determine the typical ratios of humanities salaries to other disciplines. That might be more uniform across the country, and if so, that could be a useful "benchmark", since it would implicitly incorporate other factors like cost-of-living that have such a big effect on the dollar amount.

I have no interest in a semantic debate about the term "best practice." The point is that they set a benchmark, which offers general guidance for where they think MLA salaries should be. Cost-of-living, etc. obviously would affect any particular university's adoption of this suggestion.

It's not semantic; it's relevant. To compare to the corporate "best practice" idea, suggesting companies spend 10% of their budget on environmental improvements is useful; suggesting companies spend $1000000 a year is pointless since it will be ridiculously inappropriate for many, if not most.

Determining what a reasonable salary in  relation to other things is a practice. Throwing a dart at a specific number is essentially random.

[Wahoo Redux]

For decades the MLA was king because it hosted the big job fair and published the centralized job list. The organization could be a big fat lizard sunning itself on the rocks while it digested these feasts all year long and not do much else.  Now people are phone / Zoom interviewing rather than paying travel, hotel, and registration expenses to attend the yearly conference in big cities (which obliterated part of the holidays), and there are other, better websites which host job postings.  MLA's reason for existence is fast shriveling, as is its membership.

So now MLA is conscientiously moving into an activist role.  Great.  But I suspect it is too late.  They should have been all over the adjunct situation decades ago. 

These sort of pronouncements sound a lot like union grandstanding to me.

I would love to see the AAUP, APA, and MLA as advocacy groups for academia.  Sadly I think they missed the window and I can't imagine how expensive it would be to actually launch a campaign to stave off the coming collapse.  Here's hoping...

[mleok]

I have no interest in a semantic debate about the term "best practice." The point is that they set a benchmark, which offers general guidance for where they think MLA salaries should be. Cost-of-living, etc. obviously would affect any particular university's adoption of this suggestion.

What you are suggesting would just be identifying the average salary of an MLA AP adjusted for cost of living and other things. That may or may not be a useful exercise but is clearly not what they are trying to do here.

Would you prefer a semantic debate on what "recommended" means? For a salary guideline to be useful, it should be framed in a way that minimizes the need for it to be adjusted downwards routinely. What use is a salary guideline if it is only observed in the breach?

[mleok]

To give a better example of more useful information, both for departments, and for job seekers, look at the faculty salaries report by the American Mathematical Society,

http://www.ams.org/profession/data/annual-survey/2018Survey-FacultySalaries-Report.pdf

which reports the 25th percentile, median, and 75th percentile of salaries, broken down by rank, and institution/department type. This actually provides information that can be used by departments to advocate for more resources from the university administration, as opposed to a "recommended" salary that does nothing more than make the MLA a laughing stock.

As to the harm this can pose, it just serves to reinforce the narrative that humanities faculty are hopelessly out of touch with reality.

[Mobius]

That detailed level of data also helps those negotiating offers. You'll have a sense of what to counter instead of asking for a salary that would get an offer pulled.