Gen ed problems and future outlook

[Ruralguy]

In my experience, then main issues in trying to sustain such a  "core" are:

When do you stop? That is, what classes can we say are "enough?" Why? That is, do we want the core to be primarily skills based, based on themes, service or some other thing? When you decide on the purpose of the core, then exactly how many classes are enough to achieve that goal? In what areas do you concentrate?

Then you start to get into the problem Mleok brought up. How much is decided by committee compromise to settle turf/enrollment issues and "fairness?"  My experience is that almost every requirement has an element to it that was decided for these reasons. This can lead to a jumble of check boxes with little justification for the requirement.

And though the departments generally like to have sustained enrollments due to gen ed requirements, they will also be quick to complain about unmotivated and resentful students (who then reward them with poor teaching evaluations). Though some will also mention that occaissionally they will get a student who was turned on to the subject due to taking a gen ed required class.

The number of classes are usually capped due to concerns over majors. But then, where these classes are placed in curriculum space is almost always a turf war compromise with some lip service given to pedagogy. I guess if we are cognizant of these issues while reviewing a curriculum, we might be able to avoid the pitfalls.

I am not sure if you can ever do anything regarding unmotivated students. Even the best teachers can't motivate most of them most of the time. Although, I do think gen ed requirements, especially in traditional lecture format, can really end up generating many more unmotivated students than if you didn't have the requirement. I don't think thats sufficient reason to me for doing away with the idea, but just one more thing you have to keep track of while building the curriculum.

[marshwiggle]

The term that keeps popping into my head as I read this discussion is "well-rounded". In the last decades of the 20th century, there was an emphasis by elite colleges on being the well-rounded applicant, and to becoming a well-rounded individual through a broad college education.

Why does "well-rounded" imply academic subjects? I would have been much more well-rounded if I'd taken guitar, carpentry, and Thai cooking, for example.

It's as ridiculous as talking about someone "diversifying" their interest by, instead of sitting watching football, watching football and hockey and basketball.

[mythbuster]

At least when I was aspiring to be the well-rounded applicant it implied all those other extra-curriculars as well.

I sometimes joke that I peaked at age 17. As a senior in HS my days would include 6am swim team practice, a full day of 5 different fields of study (most at the AP level), dance rehearsals and meetings as editor of the yearbook. Oh and I volunteered at the SPCA on the weekend. All so I could look "well-rounded" in my college applications.

I have never since then been as good at so many different things all at once. But, this is also how we get to massively overscheduled, over extended youth.
    The summer before I left for college my Mother ordered me to pick 2 activities and dump the rest. So kept going to dance classes and the SPCA, and otherwise spent the summer reading novels poolside. No more need to keep it ALL going. My one summer of not doing anything productive was GLORIOUS.

[Caracal]

At least when I was aspiring to be the well-rounded applicant it implied all those other extra-curriculars as well.

I sometimes joke that I peaked at age 17. As a senior in HS my days would include 6am swim team practice, a full day of 5 different fields of study (most at the AP level), dance rehearsals and meetings as editor of the yearbook. Oh and I volunteered at the SPCA on the weekend. All so I could look "well-rounded" in my college applications.

I have never since then been as good at so many different things all at once. But, this is also how we get to massively overscheduled, over extended youth.
    The summer before I left for college my Mother ordered me to pick 2 activities and dump the rest. So kept going to dance classes and the SPCA, and otherwise spent the summer reading novels poolside. No more need to keep it ALL going. My one summer of not doing anything productive was GLORIOUS.

I think I avoided that problem by being not that good at that many things and too lazy to work at the things I wasn't that good at it.

[apl68]

At least when I was aspiring to be the well-rounded applicant it implied all those other extra-curriculars as well.

I sometimes joke that I peaked at age 17. As a senior in HS my days would include 6am swim team practice, a full day of 5 different fields of study (most at the AP level), dance rehearsals and meetings as editor of the yearbook. Oh and I volunteered at the SPCA on the weekend. All so I could look "well-rounded" in my college applications.

I have never since then been as good at so many different things all at once. But, this is also how we get to massively overscheduled, over extended youth.
    The summer before I left for college my Mother ordered me to pick 2 activities and dump the rest. So kept going to dance classes and the SPCA, and otherwise spent the summer reading novels poolside. No more need to keep it ALL going. My one summer of not doing anything productive was GLORIOUS.

I think I avoided that problem by being not that good at that many things and too lazy to work at the things I wasn't that good at it.

Same here, although my father cured the laziness part by having me work with him full-time in construction each summer when I was growing up.  And splitting and hauling firewood each winter.  He didn't NEED college to help with that part of the rounding process!  But most youths don't have those opportunities now. 

[Clarino1]

Apl--after reading your post I had to mention another father who had a similar approach.  The college I attended (a prestigious one in your state) had, at the time (mid-60's) a tradition of a Christmas banquet.  A senior boy and girl would be asked to host a table of about 10 freshpeeps with a faculty member.  I volunteered my senior year, and our faculty member was the head of the English department, who was very good at getting the younger ones to talk.  We had one freshman who was the typical football player type--blond and handsome, and did not seem to be too bright.  As an ice breaker, Dr. M asked him what he did during the past summer.  The guy answered, "I worked for my father."
Dr. M.:  "What does your father do?"
Freshman:  "He owns the ____ Foundry Company (very well known--makes every manhole cover in the state)."
Dr. M.:  "Did you work in the office?"
Freshman: "No, I worked in the foundry, hauling pig iron and stoking the furnaces (much surprise all around).  The guy continued, "The last day of work dad called me into his office and said, "Son, if you don't make your grades, you are going to be right back out on the foundry floor."  I've never had trouble finding time to study."
That was a very wise father!

[apl68]

Apl--after reading your post I had to mention another father who had a similar approach.  The college I attended (a prestigious one in your state) had, at the time (mid-60's) a tradition of a Christmas banquet.  A senior boy and girl would be asked to host a table of about 10 freshpeeps with a faculty member.  I volunteered my senior year, and our faculty member was the head of the English department, who was very good at getting the younger ones to talk.  We had one freshman who was the typical football player type--blond and handsome, and did not seem to be too bright.  As an ice breaker, Dr. M asked him what he did during the past summer.  The guy answered, "I worked for my father."
Dr. M.:  "What does your father do?"
Freshman:  "He owns the ____ Foundry Company (very well known--makes every manhole cover in the state)."
Dr. M.:  "Did you work in the office?"
Freshman: "No, I worked in the foundry, hauling pig iron and stoking the furnaces (much surprise all around).  The guy continued, "The last day of work dad called me into his office and said, "Son, if you don't make your grades, you are going to be right back out on the foundry floor."  I've never had trouble finding time to study."
That was a very wise father!

Love that story! 

Dad was quite up-front to my brother and me about hoping that working for him in the summer would discourage us from becoming the fourth generation of bricklayers in the family.  His own father's efforts to do this didn't quite work out as planned.  Dad went to college to study engineering and did well, but was called to preach in the process.  He switched to studying for the ministry--and went into laying bricks to support the family while pastoring churches too small to support a pastor.  His own father, who was already a bi-vocational pastor himself, understood that he was doing what he had to do.

Looking back, I'm glad that our family valued formal education the way it did.  At the same time, it speaks volumes about the low status that even skilled manual trade work has in our society.  We're not doing well by either society or by those who do that work to devalue it the way we do.  One reason why those sections of society have largely turned their backs on education and come to distrust it is because they feel that the educated have turned their backs on them.

[Wahoo Redux]

Apl--after reading your post I had to mention another father who had a similar approach.  The college I attended (a prestigious one in your state) had, at the time (mid-60's) a tradition of a Christmas banquet.  A senior boy and girl would be asked to host a table of about 10 freshpeeps with a faculty member.  I volunteered my senior year, and our faculty member was the head of the English department, who was very good at getting the younger ones to talk.  We had one freshman who was the typical football player type--blond and handsome, and did not seem to be too bright.  As an ice breaker, Dr. M asked him what he did during the past summer.  The guy answered, "I worked for my father."
Dr. M.:  "What does your father do?"
Freshman:  "He owns the ____ Foundry Company (very well known--makes every manhole cover in the state)."
Dr. M.:  "Did you work in the office?"
Freshman: "No, I worked in the foundry, hauling pig iron and stoking the furnaces (much surprise all around).  The guy continued, "The last day of work dad called me into his office and said, "Son, if you don't make your grades, you are going to be right back out on the foundry floor."  I've never had trouble finding time to study."
That was a very wise father!

So interesting that this young fella----who was presumably age of majority----still let Dad decide whether or not he worked on the foundry floor instead of saying, "Chuck it, dad, I hate college and I hate the foundry and I'm outta here" or whatever.

That strikes me as a very universal dynamic of the post-industrial world.

[Clarino1]

In those days, the alternative for him would probably be carrying an M16 in Viet Nam.