Free College for most?

[dismalist]

I've had quite a number of students on the GI bill. They pay nothing at all and they are almost all very motivated.

I've had similar experiences with students on the GI bill. They've all been highly motivated and a delight to have in my classes.

Thus, we should put all students on the GI Bill!

[Wahoo Redux]

Education has a large multiplier effect, so in the long run programs like this can effectively pay for themselves if they are carried out thoughtfully. That said, I would prefer that people pay something for college, even if it is very little, so that they are incentivized to get a return on investment.

It doesn't need to be free--it does need to be something that ordinary everyday people can afford.  As it largely was in the postwar era.

Its possible that if students weren't taking out so many loans, they would be better incentivized to make more sensible decisions about their ability and willingness to do the work.

I've had quite a number of students on the GI bill. They pay nothing at all and they are almost all very motivated.

Are you suggesting that people with military training are disciplined enough to succeed? Maybe something other than the lack of financial pressures going on here..............

Vets are also older, which I think makes a big difference.

[Mobius]

Education has a large multiplier effect, so in the long run programs like this can effectively pay for themselves if they are carried out thoughtfully. That said, I would prefer that people pay something for college, even if it is very little, so that they are incentivized to get a return on investment.

There's lots of evidence that people put a lot less value on things that are free. And for education, think of all of the students who slack off now; if they can stay at it until they get kicked out, and without it having any direct cost to them, (only the opportunity cost of not doing something else), it will be much worse.

But you can save so much money on academic support and retention.

[Caracal]

Education has a large multiplier effect, so in the long run programs like this can effectively pay for themselves if they are carried out thoughtfully. That said, I would prefer that people pay something for college, even if it is very little, so that they are incentivized to get a return on investment.

It doesn't need to be free--it does need to be something that ordinary everyday people can afford.  As it largely was in the postwar era.

Its possible that if students weren't taking out so many loans, they would be better incentivized to make more sensible decisions about their ability and willingness to do the work.

I've had quite a number of students on the GI bill. They pay nothing at all and they are almost all very motivated.

Are you suggesting that people with military training are disciplined enough to succeed? Maybe something other than the lack of financial pressures going on here..............

Vets are also older, which I think makes a big difference.

Obviously, I agree with all of this, but it ought to make you consider whether the idea that paying money for school increases motivation really holds up.

[downer]

Counterintuitively, there are some studies that suggest that paying for psychotherapy does not improve client motivation or outcome. Some studies suggest that people who pay expect more out of it and get more disappointed by the results than those who get it for free.

I went to college for free. I worked hard. But I probably would have chosen a different field of study if I had had college loans to repay.

[Caracal]

Education has a large multiplier effect, so in the long run programs like this can effectively pay for themselves if they are carried out thoughtfully. That said, I would prefer that people pay something for college, even if it is very little, so that they are incentivized to get a return on investment.

There's lots of evidence that people put a lot less value on things that are free. And for education, think of all of the students who slack off now; if they can stay at it until they get kicked out, and without it having any direct cost to them, (only the opportunity cost of not doing something else), it will be much worse.

But you can save so much money on academic support and retention.

I can't tell if this is meant to be sarcastic or not, but I actually think there's something to this. To be clear, I think it's important to have support for students who are struggling, but are looking for help. However, a lot of retention efforts are about essentially trying to drag students through to a degree. You can't separate that out from the financial pressures schools are under, but it is also about the financial pressures students who take a lot of loans are under. It would be good to create a system where students who come to college at 18 and realize they don't want to be there can just drop out and perhaps come back in a couple of years if they choose.

[Hibush]

Education has a large multiplier effect, so in the long run programs like this can effectively pay for themselves if they are carried out thoughtfully. That said, I would prefer that people pay something for college, even if it is very little, so that they are incentivized to get a return on investment.

It doesn't need to be free--it does need to be something that ordinary everyday people can afford.  As it largely was in the postwar era.

Its possible that if students weren't taking out so many loans, they would be better incentivized to make more sensible decisions about their ability and willingness to do the work.

I've had quite a number of students on the GI bill. They pay nothing at all and they are almost all very motivated.

There are various ways to have students feel they have skin in the game. Valuing education or the opportunity it provides is certainly effective for many. I think faculty tend to like them even more than the ones who are trying to get a positive return on their tuition dollar.

One way low-tuition programs are managed for effectiveness and capacity is to have entry requirements. Not letting slackers be eligible is one. The implementation of that principle in the US is often weak, with rules that seem designed to make students who are committed to education but struggling financially feel bad about themselves. (That is an intentional policy by certain lawmakers.) The implementation doesn't have to be that bad.

[apl68]

I went to college for free. I worked hard. But I probably would have chosen a different field of study if I had had college loans to repay.

Same here.  I was a scholarship student who, like most scholarship students, had already demonstrated a history of academic motivation.  I had classmates who might have taken some free money to attend college had it been offered and no more attractive possibilities been available, but who had never previously shown any motivation to study.  I'm skeptical that this would have helped them any.  Money for higher ed needs to be tied to some kind of demonstrated achievement.  Otherwise students probably need the motivation of having some skin in the game--but not the ten or fifteen pounds of flesh that colleges exact nowadays.


Edited to say that Hibush above and I appear to be talking about the same sorts of things.

[marshwiggle]

It would be good to create a system where students who come to college at 18 and realize they don't want to be there can just drop out and perhaps come back in a couple of years if they choose.

It would be even better to have a system where they aren't automatically funnelled there in the first place. If they know they want to further their education, they should be able to do so. But if they're not sure, they should do something else (like get a job) until they decide that education is really what they want.

[downer]

Isn't the reason most 18 year olds do anything beyond pursue pleasure that their parents pushed them to do it, or maybe their schools? The reason many 18 year olds go to college is that it seems like an ideal place to pursue pleasure.

[marshwiggle]

Isn't the reason most 18 year olds do anything beyond pursue pleasure that their parents pushed them to do it, or maybe their schools? The reason many 18 year olds go to college is that it seems like an ideal place to pursue pleasure.

If that's the case, that's a waste of the public's dime.

[Hibush]

Isn't the reason most 18 year olds do anything beyond pursue pleasure that their parents pushed them to do it, or maybe their schools? The reason many 18 year olds go to college is that it seems like an ideal place to pursue pleasure.

That has not been my experience at all.

[downer]

So one study finds that there are 5 rmain easons why students go to college.

To get into their best college;
To do what's expected of them;
To get away;
To step it up; and
To extend themselves.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/01/06/pervasive-narrative-students-are-going-college-just-get-job-isnt-always-so-true

I'm not sure how to interpret all those reasons, but it does seem that the word "pleasure" doesn't come up.

[Caracal]

Isn't the reason most 18 year olds do anything beyond pursue pleasure that their parents pushed them to do it, or maybe their schools? The reason many 18 year olds go to college is that it seems like an ideal place to pursue pleasure.

That has not been my experience at all.

If you really just want to "pursue pleasure," a much better choice would be to just get some job that you can completely walk away from at the end of your shift.

Besides the vast majority of my students do have those kinds of jobs. It's just that they are also taking classes. If they wanted to "pursue pleasure" they'd just skip the school part

[Wahoo Redux]

So one study finds that there are 5 rmain easons why students go to college.

To get into their best college;
To do what's expected of them;
To get away;
To step it up; and
To extend themselves.

https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2020/01/06/pervasive-narrative-students-are-going-college-just-get-job-isnt-always-so-true

I'm not sure how to interpret all those reasons, but it does seem that the word "pleasure" doesn't come up.

Claims adjusters and elevator repair people start in the $60s with a high school diploma.

Higher education is a passport to the middle class way of life for which the career is only part of the equation.