Let's Redesign Curriculum: Gen Eds

[mleok]

What should not be in a gen ed curriculum? I'm going with "college algebra, as currently taught."

My university does not have a math requirement. They were thinking about adding one. I single-handedly shut that down at the meeting at which it was brought up. I am a well-rounded individual; I do my own taxes. I have never needed math beyond the high school level. (In fact beyond the level of math taught to sophomores at a bad high school.) My undergraduate college, thank heavens, though it was an "elite" college, did not have a math requirement. In fact that's one reason I chose it over another "elite" offer. And no one has ever said to me, "Hegemony, your thinking is fairly good, but it would be so much more logical and disciplined if you'd only taken college-level math."

I'm all for required classes in History and basic science and so on. But math? As you can see, I think college classes in math, for those who don't use math in their fields, are pointless.

The same argument could be made for any other general education requirement though. As a mathematics professor, I have sat by more than my fair share of people on planes who will tell me the same thing you're saying, and I wonder to myself if I was an English professor, whether anyone would be quite so eager to tell me that they were functionally illiterate.

[marshwiggle]

I'm all for required classes in History and basic science and so on. But math? As you can see, I think college classes in math, for those who don't use math in their fields, are pointless.

The same argument could be made for any other general education requirement though. As a mathematics professor, I have sat by more than my fair share of people on planes who will tell me the same thing you're saying, and I wonder to myself if I was an English professor, whether anyone would be quite so eager to tell me that they were functionally illiterate.

Following up on this, shouldn't anyone able to get into university have sufficient English proficiency to not need more of it?

[dismalist]

I'm all for required classes in History and basic science and so on. But math? As you can see, I think college classes in math, for those who don't use math in their fields, are pointless.

The same argument could be made for any other general education requirement though. As a mathematics professor, I have sat by more than my fair share of people on planes who will tell me the same thing you're saying, and I wonder to myself if I was an English professor, whether anyone would be quite so eager to tell me that they were functionally illiterate.

Following up on this, shouldn't anyone able to get into university have sufficient English proficiency to not need more of it?

Yeah. A major difficulty in answering the thread's wish is that in the US colleges and universities are incredibly diverse and serve many varied interests.

E.g. a nice practical major is Hospitality Management. Nothing against such workers, but why this should be in the university at all is a mystery. Same with much of Business. And I would certainly not require Calculus of such students.

At the other end are the STEM majors. Clearly math and complementary sciences and statistic are necessary. But that's easy to figure out.

Best might be to knock off half the the Gen Ed curriculum. Make college three years.

[marshwiggle]

Yeah. A major difficulty in answering the thread's wish is that in the US colleges and universities are incredibly diverse and serve many varied interests.

E.g. a nice practical major is Hospitality Management. Nothing against such workers, but why this should be in the university at all is a mystery. Same with much of Business.

In Canada, this is basically the distinction between "college" and "university". Vocational, typically 1-3 year, programs are at college. 4 year academic programs are at university. Colleges issue diplomas; universities issue degrees.

[dismalist]

Yeah. A major difficulty in answering the thread's wish is that in the US colleges and universities are incredibly diverse and serve many varied interests.

E.g. a nice practical major is Hospitality Management. Nothing against such workers, but why this should be in the university at all is a mystery. Same with much of Business.

In Canada, this is basically the distinction between "college" and "university". Vocational, typically 1-3 year, programs are at college. 4 year academic programs are at university. Colleges issue diplomas; universities issue degrees.

Excellent! The US already has the infrastructure for such an allocation in the form of Community Colleges. If their remit were broadened, competition form below would force the four year apparats to stop offering vocational fields [signalling aside, though lower CC prices could take care of that.]

This is not a digression. It is a vital step in defining the Gen Ed requirements.

Oh Canada! :-)

[mleok]

I'm all for required classes in History and basic science and so on. But math? As you can see, I think college classes in math, for those who don't use math in their fields, are pointless.

The same argument could be made for any other general education requirement though. As a mathematics professor, I have sat by more than my fair share of people on planes who will tell me the same thing you're saying, and I wonder to myself if I was an English professor, whether anyone would be quite so eager to tell me that they were functionally illiterate.

Following up on this, shouldn't anyone able to get into university have sufficient English proficiency to not need more of it?

Exactly, all I see as justification for general education in higher education is predicated on the US's mediocre K-12 educational system.

[Ruralguy]

Some of our most talented students come in with 60 credits DE or AP . In addition, they are likely to get significant scholarships. So, they can, with some effort, essentially only attend 2 years and pay for one (at least as far as tuition goes).  Though we'd love to be able to attract more good students, for obvious reasons, we have to cap it. If our reputation improves, we can perhaps get away with giving out smaller scholarships on higher tuition while also accepting fewer course for credit, but until that day, we have to give out credit and discounts, and thus cap awesome students (its self limiting anyway). 

Our best STEM students would probably not mind having no core curriculum. I can think of 2-3 who liked it over the years, but many just try to use whatever transferred in credits that can get to cover them, and not  do anything extra in non-major subjects. i don't really personally support that outlook, but I can see why they have it.

[Hegemony]

Best might be to knock off half the the Gen Ed curriculum. Make college three years.

I think the real reason we need the Gen Ed curriculum is that K-12 does not invariably provide a broad, rigorous foundation in the things an educated person ought to know. The Gen Ed requirements are often basically remedial — our last chance at giving people a wide foundation of knowledge. One problem is that students often don't care, which was part of the problem at the high school level as well.

[dismalist]

Best might be to knock off half the the Gen Ed curriculum. Make college three years.

I think the real reason we need the Gen Ed curriculum is that K-12 does not invariably provide a broad, rigorous foundation in the things an educated person ought to know. The Gen Ed requirements are often basically remedial — our last chance at giving people a wide foundation of knowledge. One problem is that students often don't care, which was part of the problem at the high school level as well.

European countries have 13 years of schooling for the educated to learn what the educated are supposed to learn. We have 14.

Knock off one year.

[Wahoo Redux]

Exactly, all I see as justification for general education in higher education is predicated on the US's mediocre K-12 educational system.

I've been looking up the relative scores of world educational systems.  It is interesting.

[Mobius]

An honest-to-god computer literacy class on how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software. Some basic computer troubleshooting such as installing/uninstalling software, and updating software. Might be helpful to use Windows and a Mac.

[dismalist]

An honest-to-god computer literacy class on how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software. Some basic computer troubleshooting such as installing/uninstalling software, and updating software. Might be helpful to use Windows and a Mac.

Daughter's High School offered that -- 15 years ago.

[spork]

An honest-to-god computer literacy class on how to use a word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software. Some basic computer troubleshooting such as installing/uninstalling software, and updating software. Might be helpful to use Windows and a Mac.

Daughter's High School offered that -- 15 years ago.

Reminds me of when I learned BASIC in 8th grade -- 41 years ago.

[Mobius]

My kids haven't taken any computer literacy courses. I took classes at a CC 15 years ago that required such a course to get an associate's degree. My work study gig was being a TA in the computer lab. Those students even had to learn Access along with Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. Just checked the catalog and that requirement was dropped.

[dismalist]

My kids haven't taken any computer literacy courses. I took classes at a CC 15 years ago that required such a course to get an associate's degree. My work study gig was being a TA in the computer lab. Those students even had to learn Access along with Word, Excel, and PowerPoint. Just checked the catalog and that requirement was dropped.

Do you mean just Access or the whole lot?