No more masks?? (What are your thoughts?)

[mamselle]

Universal precautions are universal precautions until the need is not universal anymore.

As far as I can see, there are still un-clued folk insisting on their right to put everyone else at risk for no good reason, and they're anti-canny enough to figure out that all they have to say now, is, "But I'M VACCINATED!" so as to avoid the mask mandate, and think they're getting away with something.

On my once-every-other-week (double-masked and nitrile-gloved) trip to the bank and the store at 7 AM, I saw several whom, I am guessing, were operating under that delusion.

Where possible, I walked out in the street to stay 6 feel away from them.  Where necessary, I sat as far apart as I could to keep from being near them on the bus. If I couldn't do anything else, I made sure to turn my head away from theirs, preferably towards a wall, as they went by.

People can play all the games they want with their own lives (well, no, they really can't, it still affects others) but polite and courteous includes thinking about how one's actions affect others, and doing something appropriate about it.

Like wearing a mask and not wandering about like you own the place.

You don't.

M.

[Descartes]

Universal precautions are universal precautions until the need is not universal anymore.

As far as I can see, there are still un-clued folk insisting on their right to put everyone else at risk for no good reason, and they're anti-canny enough to figure out that all they have to say now, is, "But I'M VACCINATED!" so as to avoid the mask mandate, and think they're getting away with something.

On my once-every-other-week (double-masked and nitrile-gloved) trip to the bank and the store at 7 AM, I saw several whom, I am guessing, were operating under that delusion.

Where possible, I walked out in the street to stay 6 feel away from them.  Where necessary, I sat as far apart as I could to keep from being near them on the bus. If I couldn't do anything else, I made sure to turn my head away from theirs, preferably towards a wall, as they went by.

People can play all the games they want with their own lives (well, no, they really can't, it still affects others) but polite and courteous includes thinking about how one's actions affect others, and doing something appropriate about it.

Like wearing a mask and not wandering about like you own the place.

You don't.

M.

But ... the guidance is that if one is fully vaxxed they do not need to wear it anymore.  Are you only referring to those who lie about it?

I actually am vaccinated; and yes, I'm done with the mask.

[onthefringe]

Also, not sure if you have the expertise to answer this question, but how is it possible that masks only work in one direction?

This question has bugged me since inception. I don't do non-symmetries. I invented the following out of whole cloth.

Best I can figure is that the pesky little viruses also live in nasal mucous or mouth mucous and the mask stops the liquid on the way out. Thus, little viruses are immobilized.

However, should  a maskless person sneeze at you, the little viruses will have left their mucous carrier, fly through the air, and implant themselves into you.

--I've never come across a professional explanation for the asymmetry.

--I know of no systematic tests that have been done. [Sound familiar?]

There's a fair amount of research in these areas that to my reading supports the idea that masks are observationally better at "source control" (preventing virus getting out of an infected person) than they are at protecting a wearer, though they do both of those things with some efficiency see for example thisand this. Generally it looks like 1) droplets being exhaled are in general larger and easier to catch, but as they break up and get smaller, they are less easy to catch and can be inhaled through a mask and possibly that 2) people can get infected through other mucous membranes (eyes) that aren't covered by masks.

What also VERY clear is that wearing a mask is NOT sufficient to protect someone from the aerosols created by an unmasked infected person. And people with immune deficiencies likely have less robust responses to the vaccines, and thus are comparatively unprotected. So people who say "well, I'm at low risk and willing to run the risk of getting COVID, and people who are scared should just take precautions so I'm planning to gallivant around without a mask" are basically saying "people who are themselves at high risk or who live with high risk people are unimportant to me and should just put their lives on hold because wearing a mask is too much trouble for me"

My personal opinion is that the new CDC mask recommendations are science based — vaccinated people are unlikely to get or transmit COVID, and thus don't need masks. In a perfect world where people actually followed this guidance it would be fine. But in the real world there are numerous issues with vaccine uptake, and relatively high levels of circulation lots of places. When this is combined with the joyful announcement of some people (including some people in congress) that a lack of mandates means everyone can stop wearing masks regardless, I start to worry. As a matter of PUBLIC health policy, I think mask mandates should have been maintained until the prevalence was low enough for people who can't be vaccinated or who will respond to vaccines less robustly to have some confidence that they weren't going to get COVID in the workplace or at a store. This would also slow down the production of new variants.

[dismalist]

Also, not sure if you have the expertise to answer this question, but how is it possible that masks only work in one direction?

This question has bugged me since inception. I don't do non-symmetries. I invented the following out of whole cloth.

Best I can figure is that the pesky little viruses also live in nasal mucous or mouth mucous and the mask stops the liquid on the way out. Thus, little viruses are immobilized.

However, should  a maskless person sneeze at you, the little viruses will have left their mucous carrier, fly through the air, and implant themselves into you.

--I've never come across a professional explanation for the asymmetry.

--I know of no systematic tests that have been done. [Sound familiar?]

There's a fair amount of research in these areas that to my reading supports the idea that masks are observationally better at "source control" (preventing virus getting out of an infected person) than they are at protecting a wearer, though they do both of those things with some efficiency see for example thisand this. Generally it looks like 1) droplets being exhaled are in general larger and easier to catch, but as they break up and get smaller, they are less easy to catch and can be inhaled through a mask and possibly that 2) people can get infected through other mucous membranes (eyes) that aren't covered by masks.

What also VERY clear is that wearing a mask is NOT sufficient to protect someone from the aerosols created by an unmasked infected person. And people with immune deficiencies likely have less robust responses to the vaccines, and thus are comparatively unprotected. So people who say "well, I'm at low risk and willing to run the risk of getting COVID, and people who are scared should just take precautions so I'm planning to gallivant around without a mask" are basically saying "people who are themselves at high risk or who live with high risk people are unimportant to me and should just put their lives on hold because wearing a mask is too much trouble for me"

My personal opinion is that the new CDC mask recommendations are science based — vaccinated people are unlikely to get or transmit COVID, and thus don't need masks. In a perfect world where people actually followed this guidance it would be fine. But in the real world there are numerous issues with vaccine uptake, and relatively high levels of circulation lots of places. When this is combined with the joyful announcement of some people (including some people in congress) that a lack of mandates means everyone can stop wearing masks regardless, I start to worry. As a matter of PUBLIC health policy, I think mask mandates should have been maintained until the prevalence was low enough for people who can't be vaccinated or who will respond to vaccines less robustly to have some confidence that they weren't going to get COVID in the workplace or at a store. This would also slow down the production of new variants.

Excellent, just what I guessed [sort of]! :-)

[Cheerful]

Informative article about scientific debates over mask quality and mask impact:

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-the-evolving-science-of-face-masks-and-covid-19/

Critical Analysis:  "Cloth masks might offer some benefit for people running into a grocery store for five to 10 minutes, but for workers who are there for hours, Brosseau thinks they do little to capture or filter out the smaller respiratory particles, or aerosols, that can linger in the air and build up. That's why she thinks more attention needs to be paid to better ventilation systems and better masks — ultimately, N95 respirators for workers and other standardized masks for the public."

Unknowns:  "...it's not yet known how good is good enough when it comes to masks. And there are still many remaining unknowns about how the coronavirus spreads, including how much virus it takes to infect a person and how that might depend on particle size or the exact route the virus uses to enter the body. "Without that information," he [Volckens] said, "it's really hard to make risk-based decisions."

The science on masks is not settled.

[Cheerful]

As a matter of PUBLIC health policy, I think mask mandates should have been maintained until the prevalence was low enough for people who can't be vaccinated or who will respond to vaccines less robustly to have some confidence that they weren't going to get COVID in the workplace or at a store. This would also slow down the production of new variants.

The CDC didn't give political leaders or general public time to prepare.  So you have a 20something grocery store cashier who has had only one of two doses, who's trying to do the right thing by getting vaxxed, and must now operate in an environment of non-vaxxed people without masks before the cashier is fully vaxxed.

[dismalist]

Aaah, looks like the asymmetry in face mask efficacy is getting less asymmetric [good news]:

From Science, today

Abstract

Airborne transmission by droplets and aerosols is important for the spread of viruses. Face masks are a well-established preventive measure, but their effectiveness for mitigating SARS-CoV-2 transmission is still under debate. We show that variations in mask efficacy can be explained by different regimes of virus abundance and related to population-average infection probability and reproduction number. For SARS-CoV-2, the viral load of infectious individuals can vary by orders of magnitude. We find that most environments and contacts are under conditions of low virus abundance (virus-limited) where surgical masks are effective at preventing virus spread. More advanced masks and other protective equipment are required in potentially virus-rich indoor environments including medical centers and hospitals. Masks are particularly effective in combination with other preventive measures like ventilation and distancing.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2021/05/19/science.abg6296

[Vkw10]

Our campus president sent an email this morning. I'd estimate that 80% of people on campus were maskless within 15 minutes.

In the case of a college campus, I'd assume that's about the percentage of people who are fully vaccinated now? I have a social circle filled with academics, and just about all of them are protected at this point.

I'm fairly certain faculty and staff in my department are vaccinated, but less certain about our graduate students and work study students. Many of them were having a hard time getting to vaccination sites. We've been told multiple times that we can't ask.

I found it amusing that people read the masks-not-required email so quickly. They don't respond to my emails that fast.

[Ruralguy]

I haven't seen a single mask on campus other than myself. I just don't believe we're 100 percent vaccinated...maybe 75 percent at best?

[Caracal]

Universal precautions are universal precautions until the need is not universal anymore.

As far as I can see, there are still un-clued folk insisting on their right to put everyone else at risk for no good reason, and they're anti-canny enough to figure out that all they have to say now, is, "But I'M VACCINATED!" so as to avoid the mask mandate, and think they're getting away with something.

On my once-every-other-week (double-masked and nitrile-gloved) trip to the bank and the store at 7 AM, I saw several whom, I am guessing, were operating under that delusion.

Where possible, I walked out in the street to stay 6 feel away from them.  Where necessary, I sat as far apart as I could to keep from being near them on the bus. If I couldn't do anything else, I made sure to turn my head away from theirs, preferably towards a wall, as they went by.

People can play all the games they want with their own lives (well, no, they really can't, it still affects others) but polite and courteous includes thinking about how one's actions affect others, and doing something appropriate about it.

Like wearing a mask and not wandering about like you own the place.

You don't.

M.

I want to stipulate that
1. Nobody needs to stop wearing masks anywhere until they feel comfortable with it.
2. People have different risks as well as different risk tolerances. There might be good health based reasons for you to be continue to be cautious.

That said. As a not as young as I used to be person in (knock on wood) good health, the vaccine makes it extremely unlikely I'd get COVID or pass it to anyone. There are people who have been vaccinated who aren't fortunate enough for all that to be true for.

Of course, you're right that people need to still follow rules. That's just about courtesy. People going in places that say on the door that people need to wear masks shouldn't have to worry about whether the people not wearing them are vaccinated or not. I'm no longer worrying when people get close to me on the street, but I'm still trying to make sure I don't accidentally sidle up to people. They don't know that I'm vaccinated.