What "old skills" students have lost

[dismalist]

Being able to do basic math and fractions without a calculator. We were talking about standard fastener sizes and I remember asking something like "What's half of 3/4?" and I was fully expecting someone to immediately reply with 3/8. Crickets. Then they pulled out their calculators. And when they do that, they end up with a decimal and can't recognize that decimal in fraction form.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get somebody to write an app that converts decimal results to fractions [rounding error aside]. :-)

[ergative]

Being able to do basic math and fractions without a calculator. We were talking about standard fastener sizes and I remember asking something like "What's half of 3/4?" and I was fully expecting someone to immediately reply with 3/8. Crickets. Then they pulled out their calculators. And when they do that, they end up with a decimal and can't recognize that decimal in fraction form.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get somebody to write an app that converts decimal results to fractions [rounding error aside]. :-)

There's an R package that does that, called fractional.

[mahagonny]

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

You actually find websites that answer the question 'how did they tune musical instruments before tuners.' [snicker]

Writing musical notation by hand, neatly, with proper spacing.

[marshwiggle]

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

This reminds me of a guy I knew who was an award-winning classical guitarist. He strummed his guitar once, and then adjusted 3 or 4 of the pegs before starting to play. My mind still boggles at that degree of memory and instinct.

[EdnaMode]

Being able to do basic math and fractions without a calculator. We were talking about standard fastener sizes and I remember asking something like "What's half of 3/4?" and I was fully expecting someone to immediately reply with 3/8. Crickets. Then they pulled out their calculators. And when they do that, they end up with a decimal and can't recognize that decimal in fraction form.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get somebody to write an app that converts decimal results to fractions [rounding error aside]. :-)

There's an R package that does that, called fractional.

Oh, I know there are apps for that, but it should be something that they can do without an app **get off my lawn** **grumble, snort, roll eyes** ;)

[marshwiggle]

Being able to do basic math and fractions without a calculator. We were talking about standard fastener sizes and I remember asking something like "What's half of 3/4?" and I was fully expecting someone to immediately reply with 3/8. Crickets. Then they pulled out their calculators. And when they do that, they end up with a decimal and can't recognize that decimal in fraction form.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get somebody to write an app that converts decimal results to fractions [rounding error aside]. :-)

There's an R package that does that, called fractional.

Oh, I know there are apps for that, but it should be something that they can do without an app **get off my lawn** **grumble, snort, roll eyes** ;)

Actually, as many have pointed out, the "digital natives" aren't that good at finding these things for themselves; they expect the technology to have every capability built in already. Most wouldn't find the app, or even know what to look for.

[mamselle]

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

You actually find websites that answer the question 'how did they tune musical instruments before tuners.' [snicker]

Writing musical notation by hand, neatly, with proper spacing.

You really need to know more about what you're talking about to make these pronouncements...

My uncle, a professional musician and swing band leader in the 1940s, with perfect pitch, still always carried the little item known as a tuning fork, which has been in use since the early 1700s. (Before that, tuning systems varied by place and time, so a single tuning item may not have been so useful.)

And no, neither Welk nor his symphonic contemporaries were out of tune. In Welk's case, accordions, once tuned, don't lose pitch, so they had to be in tune to play together. His Scandinavian background included an European elegance that wouldn't have allowed it.

In all other cases, well, my uncle (who howled as an infant when anyone in his father's string quartet was the tiniest bit off-pitch) soloed with symphony orchestras at 14 (so, in the 1920s-30s) and he couldn't have done so if they were off pitch.

For another, you might be listening to old records whose uneven playback speeds, re-recorded, may seem to waver, but of the 600 ceramic discs my folks had from the 1890s-1950s, they're on-pitch, too....we grew up hearing them, and one of us would have noticed.

Besides which, people then didn't just tune by ear, they either tied it to an established "A-440" by tuning fork or, in an orchestra, to the pitch given by the first violin, first chair (i.e., concertmaster) who's done so before going onstage. (Actually, most also tune their own instruments first, as well....they just micro-tune in the space once they're out there.)

No-one carries the pitch around with them in their heads, but they memorize it and adjust to each other while playing....and someone, or more, in the group, will also have perfect pitch-memory,  and keep them in true.

And even if you use a little electronic tuner you're listening for pitch all the time while you're playing. It just gives a more precise start-off pitch.

Re: notation, that's the same as complaining about handwriting vs. typing.

Sure, I study (and love) manuscript pages full of neumes, perfectly done--but even then, some are pretty slapdash--it depended on the scribe, or later, the commercial house that produced the book.

And you must know that for at least 2 centuries, between the 800s and the 1000s, there were no lines on which to space the puncta (points), they were just an aide-memoire,. You were supposed to have the whole book memorized before entering the canonical or monastic choir.

I teach my students to notate by hand before teaching them to use MuseScore, Sibelius, etc., and we do ear-training and dictation by hand as well, so they're exposed to it, but it's quicker and directly readable on-screen (and it tickles me that they'll even annote on-screen to circle or label things while talking about them in class--thus making it their own!) and lets us cover more content.

So it's a worthwhile trade-off.

On the other hand, I also have six file boxes of my late uncle's band scores, almost all done by hand and decently legible. But my aunt, his sister, who played bass in his band and taught 90 piano students in her day, did the line-short-line scatter thing you see when people are notating something quickly.

I figure with that many students, the luxury of spacing and "bubbling-in the note-heads" (as one of my students calls it) was one she just didn't have.

My uncle trained and worked as a copyist to pay the bills sometimes.

His sister, my aunt, ran her household (absent spouse) and taught as well as played to earn money.

Different times, different genders, different training, different circumstances.

M.

[apl68]

Basic car maintenance. Change the oil, rotate the tires, change the air filter, change spark plugs, check/change the battery, refill washer fluid, etc.

With the latest generation of cars you pretty much void the warranty by just popping the hood.

[apl68]

Card catalog in the library

To what extent does the average student even know how to use a modern OPAC?  Search skills weren't that great among some of the students I worked with when I was at a university library.

[wareagle]

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

You actually find websites that answer the question 'how did they tune musical instruments before tuners.' [snicker]

Writing musical notation by hand, neatly, with proper spacing.

No-one carries the pitch around with them in their heads, but they memorize it and adjust to each other while playing....and someone, or more, in the group, will also have perfect pitch-memory,  and keep them in true.

Actually, I don't have perfect pitch - not close - but I can almost always pluck an A out of thin air.  All the years of tuning stringed instruments have drilled an A into my head.

I can see  using a tuning fork or a digital tuner to get that A, but after that, using one's ears to finish tuning is a dying art.  Even music faculty use the digital tuners at my university, and it is disheartening.

The other skill that seems to be gone is setting a watch.  I got a new battery for my watch at Walmart, and the young woman could not figure out how to take the "8:50" from her iPhone, and translate that into where the hands on the watch  should be.

[mahagonny]

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

You actually find websites that answer the question 'how did they tune musical instruments before tuners.' [snicker]

Writing musical notation by hand, neatly, with proper spacing.

You really need to know more about what you're talking about to make these pronouncements...

M.

...

And no, neither Welk nor his symphonic contemporaries were out of tune.

Whoa, Nellie...you didn't get my sarcasm. That's why I went ...;-)
Yes, uhm... David Oistrakh played pretty well.

Tuning a musical instrument by ear. Years ago, musicians didn't carry portable electronic tuners. All symphony orchestras and popular entertainers like the Lawrence Welk band played out of tune...;-)

This reminds me of a guy I knew who was an award-winning classical guitarist. He strummed his guitar once, and then adjusted 3 or 4 of the pegs before starting to play. My mind still boggles at that degree of memory and instinct.

A budding heavy metal guitarist got himself a job ushering in a theatre. One day he got very excited to find his favorite rock star was slated to perform there next month. He was there with bells on. After the show the young man went up to the star for an autograph. He then ventured a question, politely:
"Your show was like, totally awesome, as usual. Just one thing, if I may ask: I noticed at one point that you had quite a bit of difficulty getting the guitar in tune. Andres Segovia played here last week and he got in the thing in tune in just 10 seconds!?"
Rock star: "Well, some guys just don't give a shit."

[ciao_yall]

Searching a database using keywords instead of just Googling it and hoping for the best.

[onthefringe]

Being able to do basic math and fractions without a calculator. We were talking about standard fastener sizes and I remember asking something like "What's half of 3/4?" and I was fully expecting someone to immediately reply with 3/8. Crickets. Then they pulled out their calculators. And when they do that, they end up with a decimal and can't recognize that decimal in fraction form.

Shouldn't be too difficult to get somebody to write an app that converts decimal results to fractions [rounding error aside]. :-)

the run of the mill calculator they are asked to buy for highschool precalc will do it. I once had a student in the context of an exam (at which calculators were allowed) call me over because he had used his calculator to multiply 1/2 x 1/4 and didn't know how to convert 0.125 back to a fraction. My at the time 12 year old daughter was horrified that a) he needed a calculator for that calculation, and b) that he didn't know how to use his calculator for fractions.

I would settle for them being able to recognize that the number they came up with is off by two orders of magnitude and that they either keyed something in wrong or set something up wrong. Students who give answers like "there's a 450% chance of outcome X" make my brain hurt.

[mamselle]

Whoa, Nellie

My name is not "Nellie."

M.

[apl68]

Whoa, Nellie

My name is not "Nellie."

M.

Yeah, mahagonny, it's "Selle," not "Nellie."