What "old skills" students have lost

[Caracal]

I am now wondering if alphabetizing is a skill they do not have. I am reading term papers (on the screen, not printed out) and a large number do not alphabetize their sources. I have no idea how they are ordering their works cited; maybe by color of the book?

Many don't know the alphabet song or what alphabetical order means or that you alphabetize people by surname. I encourage my students to use the first two videos below to learn alphabetical order, but I also point out that there are many tools like the third one listed to alphabetize a list for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p-N9YKqNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjE6lP_V8jc

https://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetical-order.php
often doesn't get taught.

Apparently alphabetical order isn't on standardized tests, so it

Is that really true? My kid is in pre-k and they certainly do the alphabet song. Also, we have a million A is for Aardwolf type books that all reinforce that. I'm guessing the students just didn't bother to alphabetize their sources. It doesn't seem like that strange an oversight. It would be like concluding that because they didn't put page numbers on, they can't count. I can't recall any time when I needed to manually alphabetize something in my adult life.

[Langue_doc]

I am now wondering if alphabetizing is a skill they do not have. I am reading term papers (on the screen, not printed out) and a large number do not alphabetize their sources. I have no idea how they are ordering their works cited; maybe by color of the book?

Many don't know the alphabet song or what alphabetical order means or that you alphabetize people by surname. I encourage my students to use the first two videos below to learn alphabetical order, but I also point out that there are many tools like the third one listed to alphabetize a list for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p-N9YKqNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjE6lP_V8jc

https://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetical-order.php
often doesn't get taught.

Apparently alphabetical order isn't on standardized tests, so it

Is that really true? My kid is in pre-k and they certainly do the alphabet song. Also, we have a million A is for Aardwolf type books that all reinforce that. I'm guessing the students just didn't bother to alphabetize their sources. It doesn't seem like that strange an oversight. It would be like concluding that because they didn't put page numbers on, they can't count. I can't recall any time when I needed to manually alphabetize something in my adult life.

Some of my students repeatedly fail to alphabetize their sources despite explicit directions and feedback, so it isn't a question of not bothering to do so. It's either not knowing to alphabetize or not knowing the meaning of the word "alphabetize".

[Caracal]

I am now wondering if alphabetizing is a skill they do not have. I am reading term papers (on the screen, not printed out) and a large number do not alphabetize their sources. I have no idea how they are ordering their works cited; maybe by color of the book?

Many don't know the alphabet song or what alphabetical order means or that you alphabetize people by surname. I encourage my students to use the first two videos below to learn alphabetical order, but I also point out that there are many tools like the third one listed to alphabetize a list for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p-N9YKqNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjE6lP_V8jc

https://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetical-order.php
often doesn't get taught.

Apparently alphabetical order isn't on standardized tests, so it

Is that really true? My kid is in pre-k and they certainly do the alphabet song. Also, we have a million A is for Aardwolf type books that all reinforce that. I'm guessing the students just didn't bother to alphabetize their sources. It doesn't seem like that strange an oversight. It would be like concluding that because they didn't put page numbers on, they can't count. I can't recall any time when I needed to manually alphabetize something in my adult life.

Some of my students repeatedly fail to alphabetize their sources despite explicit directions and feedback, so it isn't a question of not bothering to do so. It's either not knowing to alphabetize or not knowing the meaning of the word "alphabetize".

Or just failing to follow instructions?

[jerseyjay]

My daughter is in kindergarten, and she does know the alphabet.

A friend of mine, who originally trained as a librarian, once told me that at some point decades ago he got a job teaching high school in an urban public school and many of the students did not know how to alphabetize. (He taught them the skill based on alphabetizing their record collection, which shows how long ago this was.)

I think most students are taught the alphabet, in the same way that most students are taught the basics of U.S. history or geography in elementary school. The fact that they were taught it does not mean they learnt it.

I am sure that most of my university students CAN alphabetize (I am talking about the basics, not advanced things like where to put the Mcs and Macs or which apellido to use in compound Spanish names). Some may have forgot since computers can do it for you, but many DON'T do it because they do not see the point in doing so.

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

[marshwiggle]

Alphabetized by surname? Tell Canvas. Aggravating as hell to get students listed by first name.

D2L does that by default as well. Are these assuming most classes are so small that first names make more sense most of the time? It's hard to imagine where that comes from.

[Caracal]

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

It can be easy to forget that a lot of this about professionalism. I didn't really fully learn to pay attention to the details till I got some gentle rebukes in grad school from professors who told me that these things were important and failing to do the little things would keep people from taking me and my work seriously.

Students aren't professionals. If they turn in a paper with a lot of typos or forget to put in page numbers, it might result in a slightly lower grade, but it isn't going to effect their reputation.

[ergative]

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

It can be easy to forget that a lot of this about professionalism. I didn't really fully learn to pay attention to the details till I got some gentle rebukes in grad school from professors who told me that these things were important and failing to do the little things would keep people from taking me and my work seriously.

Students aren't professionals. If they turn in a paper with a lot of typos or forget to put in page numbers, it might result in a slightly lower grade, but it isn't going to effect their reputation.

You're dead to me, Caracal.

[Caracal]

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

It can be easy to forget that a lot of this about professionalism. I didn't really fully learn to pay attention to the details till I got some gentle rebukes in grad school from professors who told me that these things were important and failing to do the little things would keep people from taking me and my work seriously.

Students aren't professionals. If they turn in a paper with a lot of typos or forget to put in page numbers, it might result in a slightly lower grade, but it isn't going to effect their reputation.

You're dead to me, Caracal.

Oh hell. Effect/Affect always gets me.

[marshwiggle]

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

It can be easy to forget that a lot of this about professionalism. I didn't really fully learn to pay attention to the details till I got some gentle rebukes in grad school from professors who told me that these things were important and failing to do the little things would keep people from taking me and my work seriously.

Students aren't professionals. If they turn in a paper with a lot of typos or forget to put in page numbers, it might result in a slightly lower grade, but it isn't going to effect their reputation.

You're dead to me, Caracal.

Could it not, potentially, effect their reputation if they had none previously, and this got widely publicized?

(And actually, if their reputation was already established, this would not, in fact, effect it, in which case Caracal would be correct.)

[apl68]

(And actually, if their reputation was already established, this would not, in fact, effect it, in which case Caracal would be correct.)

That occurred to me as well. 

Evidently I sometimes think like marshwiggle does.  Scary!

And I knew what a marshwiggle was too, even before any appeared onscreen.

[apl68]

My daughter is in kindergarten, and she does know the alphabet.

A friend of mine, who originally trained as a librarian, once told me that at some point decades ago he got a job teaching high school in an urban public school and many of the students did not know how to alphabetize. (He taught them the skill based on alphabetizing their record collection, which shows how long ago this was.)

I think most students are taught the alphabet, in the same way that most students are taught the basics of U.S. history or geography in elementary school. The fact that they were taught it does not mean they learnt it.

I am sure that most of my university students CAN alphabetize (I am talking about the basics, not advanced things like where to put the Mcs and Macs or which apellido to use in compound Spanish names). Some may have forgot since computers can do it for you, but many DON'T do it because they do not see the point in doing so.

Many students do not do things (add page numbers, have an explicit thesis, turn work in on time) despite repeated instructions. Part of this is laziness, part of it is cynicism (am I going to fail a student for not putting page numbers?), and much of it is that they see these skills as useless.

This speaks to the difference between knowing something and knowing what to do with it.  Sounds like many students know the alphabet (one would presume), but don't realize that arranging things in alphabetical order can be a very handy way to organize.  And is indeed likely to be expected of them sooner or later in their work and life.  An awful lot of what we encounter in school is like that--of no immediate or obvious use to us when we're at that stage in life, but honest-to-goodness good to know eventually. 

The thing is, we encounter things that aren't of immediate obvious use all the time in life, and yet they do have a reason for being.  So often we see people whose default assumption is that anything whose utility isn't immediately obvious to them must be a waste of time that they want nothing to do with.  Or don't feel any need to comply with.  Or even want to see eradicated so that they will never have to hear about it again, or take a risk of some minute bit of their tax dollars going to it.  Humanities and gen ed, anybody?

Attitudes like this are why, to name only one example, libraries in our state have to fight every two years against losing our (extremely modest and limited) state aid to libraries funding.  Because every two years we get a new crop of legislators who operate on the default assumption that anything that isn't highways, law enforcement, or (maybe) public education is a waste of money that can be cut from the state budget.  Most of them see the sense in state aid to libraries once they're educated about it, but it's tiring having to fight the same battle every two years.  Sometimes I feel like our society is afflicted with a kind of hyper-utilitarianism or hyper-pragmatism that can be harmful when it operates (as it usually does) in ignorance.

[marshwiggle]

(And actually, if their reputation was already established, this would not, in fact, effect it, in which case Caracal would be correct.)

That occurred to me as well. 

Evidently I sometimes think like marshwiggle does.  Scary!

That will probably pass. Don't worry about it.

And I knew what a marshwiggle was too, even before any appeared onscreen.

Occupational hazard of being a librarian, no doubt.

[Vkw10]

I am now wondering if alphabetizing is a skill they do not have. I am reading term papers (on the screen, not printed out) and a large number do not alphabetize their sources. I have no idea how they are ordering their works cited; maybe by color of the book?

Many don't know the alphabet song or what alphabetical order means or that you alphabetize people by surname. I encourage my students to use the first two videos below to learn alphabetical order, but I also point out that there are many tools like the third one listed to alphabetize a list for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p-N9YKqNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjE6lP_V8jc

https://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetical-order.php
often doesn't get taught.

Apparently alphabetical order isn't on standardized tests, so it

Is that really true? My kid is in pre-k and they certainly do the alphabet song. Also, we have a million A is for Aardwolf type books that all reinforce that. I'm guessing the students just didn't bother to alphabetize their sources. It doesn't seem like that strange an oversight. It would be like concluding that because they didn't put page numbers on, they can't count. I can't recall any time when I needed to manually alphabetize something in my adult life.

After one of Nephew's teachers told us that she  didn't have time to teach alphabetical order, because it's not on standardized tests, I asked to review district curriculum guide. Alphabetical order was listed as an optional skill in grades k-3. I made a list of all the optional skills, which we proceeded to make sure he learned at home. Teachers and schools are different, but I was shocked at the number of optional skills in the district curriculum guide.

[evil_physics_witchcraft]

Tell time by looking at their wrist. 

Prepare popcorn or bacon without using a microwave oven.

Knowing the difference between clockwise and counterclockwise and that it's based on the motion of the hands on an analog clock.

[Caracal]

I am now wondering if alphabetizing is a skill they do not have. I am reading term papers (on the screen, not printed out) and a large number do not alphabetize their sources. I have no idea how they are ordering their works cited; maybe by color of the book?

Many don't know the alphabet song or what alphabetical order means or that you alphabetize people by surname. I encourage my students to use the first two videos below to learn alphabetical order, but I also point out that there are many tools like the third one listed to alphabetize a list for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p-N9YKqNo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjE6lP_V8jc

https://www.textfixer.com/tools/alphabetical-order.php
often doesn't get taught.

Apparently alphabetical order isn't on standardized tests, so it

Is that really true? My kid is in pre-k and they certainly do the alphabet song. Also, we have a million A is for Aardwolf type books that all reinforce that. I'm guessing the students just didn't bother to alphabetize their sources. It doesn't seem like that strange an oversight. It would be like concluding that because they didn't put page numbers on, they can't count. I can't recall any time when I needed to manually alphabetize something in my adult life.

After one of Nephew's teachers told us that she  didn't have time to teach alphabetical order, because it's not on standardized tests, I asked to review district curriculum guide. Alphabetical order was listed as an optional skill in grades k-3. I made a list of all the optional skills, which we proceeded to make sure he learned at home. Teachers and schools are different, but I was shocked at the number of optional skills in the district curriculum guide.

I'm not in education, but is this really a skill that needs to be explicitly taught? How many six year olds don't know the alphabet song? Kids learn letters as part of pre reading, and those letters are usually presented in order. Names are usually called in alphabetical order. We live in a very literate society. Look at your phone contacts. Those are in alphabetical order too.

If you have a basic idea like that, which is continually reinforced, I'm pretty sure people just learn it? Or learn it to the extent they need to. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I  put things in alphabetical order manually. The students just needed to know how to use word to do it.