Academic Freedom and Cancel Culture

[Wahoo Redux]

Give me one example of "reassignment clinics who railroad them into medical options which they later regret."  One example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

Made the decision.

Regrets the decision.

Is looking to blame someone.

Not what you allege.

I thought conservatism valued the right to take responsibility for one's actions no matter the consequences.

[marshwiggle]

Give me one example of "reassignment clinics who railroad them into medical options which they later regret."  One example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

Made the decision.

Regrets the decision.

Is looking to blame someone.

Not what you allege.

I thought conservatism valued the right to take responsibility for one's actions no matter the consequences.

The issue is that in many places, including the UK, professionals, including medical professionals, are being regulated by governments to "support" kids' wishes to transition. In what other medical matter would it be considered ethical to allow a minor to choose unilaterally what treatment they should receive?

[Wahoo Redux]

Give me one example of "reassignment clinics who railroad them into medical options which they later regret."  One example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

Made the decision.

Regrets the decision.

Is looking to blame someone.

Not what you allege.

I thought conservatism valued the right to take responsibility for one's actions no matter the consequences.

The issue is that in many places, including the UK, professionals, including medical professionals, are being regulated by governments to "support" kids' wishes to transition. In what other medical matter would it be considered ethical to allow a minor to choose unilaterally what treatment they should receive?

So doctors are required to support their patients' wishes. 

Where does it say that?

What is wrong with that?

[marshwiggle]

Give me one example of "reassignment clinics who railroad them into medical options which they later regret."  One example.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

says she should have been challenged more by medical staff over her decision to transition to a male as a teenager.

Made the decision.

Regrets the decision.

Is looking to blame someone.

Not what you allege.

I thought conservatism valued the right to take responsibility for one's actions no matter the consequences.

The issue is that in many places, including the UK, professionals, including medical professionals, are being regulated by governments to "support" kids' wishes to transition. In what other medical matter would it be considered ethical to allow a minor to choose unilaterally what treatment they should receive?

So doctors are required to support their patients' wishes. 

Where does it say that?

What is wrong with that?

Minors are treated differently than adults legally because they are considered not-yet-capable of making life-changing decisions. That's why adults (such as parents or legal guardians) are required to make those decisions until they reach the age of majority.

Should children diagnosed with cancer be able to choose whatever treatment regimen they like, based on what they've seen online? Or should an oncologist actually use professional judgement to determine what sort of treatment is actually most likely to be effacacious and appropriate?

[Parasaurolophus]

None of these arguments are relevant.  Biology is a fact regardless of your feelings, the result of a sporting match, someone's desire for an inclusive environment, or someone else's religious dogma.

Right: biology is a fact. And te biological facts aren't on your side.

[Wahoo Redux]

Minors are treated differently than adults legally because they are considered not-yet-capable of making life-changing decisions. That's why adults (such as parents or legal guardians) are required to make those decisions until they reach the age of majority.

Should children diagnosed with cancer be able to choose whatever treatment regimen they like, based on what they've seen online? Or should an oncologist actually use professional judgement to determine what sort of treatment is actually most likely to be effacacious and appropriate?

And I think that is one of our prime mistakes as a culture.

Adolescents are not children.  We should not treat them as such.

Here is Keira Bell's own testimony about her (then) depression and his (now) decision, a course which he pursued until he was 20.

https://www.persuasion.community/p/keira-bell-my-story

He wanted a change.  He pursued a change.  Now he doesn't want the change.

Personal responsibility: conservative ideology loves this.  Walk your talk.

American conservatives generally support Kyle Rittenhouse.  We make our choices.  We live with them.

And in any event, no one was "railroaded."  No one was "required" to support anything.

[mahagonny]

Minors are treated differently than adults legally because they are considered not-yet-capable of making life-changing decisions. That's why adults (such as parents or legal guardians) are required to make those decisions until they reach the age of majority.

Should children diagnosed with cancer be able to choose whatever treatment regimen they like, based on what they've seen online? Or should an oncologist actually use professional judgement to determine what sort of treatment is actually most likely to be effacacious and appropriate?

And I think that is one of our prime mistakes as a culture.

Adolescents are not children.  We should not treat them as such.

Here is Keira Bell's own testimony about her (then) depression and his (now) decision, a course which he pursued until he was 20.

https://www.persuasion.community/p/keira-bell-my-story

He wanted a change.  He pursued a change.  Now he doesn't want the change.

Personal responsibility: conservative ideology loves this.  Walk your talk.

American conservatives generally support Kyle Rittenhouse.  We make our choices.  We live with them.

And in any event, no one was "railroaded."  No one was "required" to support anything.

So you are open to dating minors, Wahoo? Let me know how it goes.

[waterboy]

Someone needs to calmly educate me on something. I have a biology advanced degree. Never was that good at genetics but I do recall that XX was female and XY was male. I realize there are rare aberration of this, but biology would suggest that XX supports a female designation of gender and XY supports a male designation. Now, what you decide is your gender identity is apparently much more fluid. Someone? Anyone? Honest confusion here.

[Wahoo Redux]

Someone needs to calmly educate me on something. I have a biology advanced degree. Never was that good at genetics but I do recall that XX was female and XY was male. I realize there are rare aberration of this, but biology would suggest that XX supports a female designation of gender and XY supports a male designation. Now, what you decide is your gender identity is apparently much more fluid. Someone? Anyone? Honest confusion here.

I think you hit it---apparently much more fluid.  We have brains.  That changes things.  You may not experience whatever it is, but other people do.  It seems to me that it is that simple.

Once again, who cares?  If someone wants to transition to a new gender, we know that not all the original plumbing will be replaced, but there will be enough replaced that it will make some people happy. 

One of my grad school friends did this.  I have not talked to hu in quite a while, but hu was not very happy in their chromosomal designation, but hu is very happy in hu's new frame.  This person has actually had some academic success that I am very envious of.

There is so much unnatural about our lifestyles, and we have so much room to move around in, I just don't get why anyone cares what other people do with their gender assignment.  Why even ask the question?  Why get upset?  It's not my bag, but I don't think that should stop me from respecting someone else's decision.

[Parasaurolophus]

Someone needs to calmly educate me on something. I have a biology advanced degree. Never was that good at genetics but I do recall that XX was female and XY was male. I realize there are rare aberration of this, but biology would suggest that XX supports a female designation of gender and XY supports a male designation. Now, what you decide is your gender identity is apparently much more fluid. Someone? Anyone? Honest confusion here.

That's what we learn in high school biology, yes. But just as with high school physics, the truth is actually much more nuanced. Someone with XX chromosomes can have gonads, and someone with XY can have ovaries. That's because biological sex isn't just chromosomally-determined. We know that various gene activations are also important in sex-differentiation, notably SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2. Then there are all the secondary sex characteristics (like your genitalia) which develop from the interaction of your genes with your hormones, your environment, etc. We also have to remember that chromosomal sex attributes are actually averages and correlations of those attributes; as with any distribution, there are outliers--but if you look at the distribution of attributes like height, muscle mass, bone density, etc., you'll actually find that the two distributions mostly overlap (this is particularly important when talking about segregated sports, which are intrinsically stupid anyway but hey).

[marshwiggle]

Someone needs to calmly educate me on something. I have a biology advanced degree. Never was that good at genetics but I do recall that XX was female and XY was male. I realize there are rare aberration of this, but biology would suggest that XX supports a female designation of gender and XY supports a male designation. Now, what you decide is your gender identity is apparently much more fluid. Someone? Anyone? Honest confusion here.

I think you hit it---apparently much more fluid.  We have brains.  That changes things.  You may not experience whatever it is, but other people do.  It seems to me that it is that simple.

Once again, who cares?  If someone wants to transition to a new gender, we know that not all the original plumbing will be replaced, but there will be enough replaced that it will make some people happy. 

The lifelong medical consequences of transitioning are pretty serious. It isn't simply "replacing some plumbing".

One of my grad school friends did this.  I have not talked to hu in quite a while, but hu was not very happy in their chromosomal designation, but hu is very happy in hu's new frame.  This person has actually had some academic success that I am very envious of.

The issue here is people transitioning before adulthood. From previous research, of boys who wanted to transition but didn't, as adults about 85% were happy in their gender identity as gay men. The ones who still wanted to transition were happy with their choice.

If 85% of people can be prevented from experiencing lifelong medical challenges because of an ill-informed decision as a child, how is it ethical to ignore that?

There is so much unnatural about our lifestyles, and we have so much room to move around in, I just don't get why anyone cares what other people do with their gender assignment.  Why even ask the question?  Why get upset?  It's not my bag, but I don't think that should stop me from respecting someone else's decision.

We don't let kids drink bleach. We don't let them run in traffic. We try to protect them until they are at an age when they are legally responsible for their own choices. This discussion is about children transitioning; adults should be free to do whatever they want. (Although they should still have a really clear explanation about the medical consequences of their decision, just like for any medical procedure.)

[Wahoo Redux]

Someone needs to calmly educate me on something. I have a biology advanced degree. Never was that good at genetics but I do recall that XX was female and XY was male. I realize there are rare aberration of this, but biology would suggest that XX supports a female designation of gender and XY supports a male designation. Now, what you decide is your gender identity is apparently much more fluid. Someone? Anyone? Honest confusion here.

I think you hit it---apparently much more fluid.  We have brains.  That changes things.  You may not experience whatever it is, but other people do.  It seems to me that it is that simple.

Once again, who cares?  If someone wants to transition to a new gender, we know that not all the original plumbing will be replaced, but there will be enough replaced that it will make some people happy. 

The lifelong medical consequences of transitioning are pretty serious. It isn't simply "replacing some plumbing".

Sure.  It is serious surgery.  And this is what the Cleveland Clinic says:

What are the benefits of gender affirmation surgery?
Research has shown that transgender individuals who choose gender-affirming surgery experience long-term mental health benefits. In one study, a person's odds of needing mental health treatment declined by 8% each year after the gender-affirming procedure.

And regardless, people have the right to make this decision.  They know the risks, they roll the dice.

Why is it any of our business what people do if it does not affect us?  And no, meth, for instance, is not in the same category precisely because meth-addicts cause so many legal and social problems----provided that is the territory you were about to enter.

One of my grad school friends did this.  I have not talked to hu in quite a while, but hu was not very happy in their chromosomal designation, but hu is very happy in hu's new frame.  This person has actually had some academic success that I am very envious of.

The issue here is people transitioning before adulthood. From previous research, of boys who wanted to transition but didn't, as adults about 85% were happy in their gender identity as gay men. The ones who still wanted to transition were happy with their choice.

If 85% of people can be prevented from experiencing lifelong medical challenges because of an ill-informed decision as a child, how is it ethical to ignore that?

IS that the issue?  I was responding to the charge that clinics are "railroading" people into this decision.  You have one example-----which is always the way when people are trying to rationalize a prejudice: find the outlier, try to make a case out of it.

If people think about gender reassignment and decide against it, good on them too.

Really Marshy, you have nothing to say here.

There is so much unnatural about our lifestyles, and we have so much room to move around in, I just don't get why anyone cares what other people do with their gender assignment.  Why even ask the question?  Why get upset?  It's not my bag, but I don't think that should stop me from respecting someone else's decision.

We don't let kids drink bleach. We don't let them run in traffic. We try to protect them until they are at an age when they are legally responsible for their own choices. This discussion is about children transitioning; adults should be free to do whatever they want. (Although they should still have a really clear explanation about the medical consequences of their decision, just like for any medical procedure.)

You've got apples.  We're talking oranges. 

Teenagers don't, by and large, drink bleach-----children might. 

And those are pretty false equivalencies anyway. 

I usually ignore your posts, buddy. 

[ciao_yall]

The issue here is people transitioning before adulthood. From previous research, of boys who wanted to transition but didn't, as adults about 85% were happy in their gender identity as gay men. The ones who still wanted to transition were happy with their choice.

If 85% of people can be prevented from experiencing lifelong medical challenges because of an ill-informed decision as a child, how is it ethical to ignore that?

Define "wanted to transition." At the age of 6, had you told me I could be a boy I would have been thrilled! I wept bitterly about being a girl.

Did that make me trans, eligible for puberty blockers and gender reassignment surgery? Or was it "just a phase?" Maybe parents are more aware that "just a phase" might be a little more than that, but I would think most ethical doctors would have some series of protocols before starting any course of treatment.

Today I am a (reasonably) well-adjusted heterosexual cisgender woman.

That said, I do believe that gender is a decision an adult needs to make for themselves. Now a 6-year-old is probably not an adult. But when is a person old enough to understand the ramifications of changing one's gender and deciding for themselves? 14? 18?

[smallcleanrat]

The issue here is people transitioning before adulthood. From previous research, of boys who wanted to transition but didn't, as adults about 85% were happy in their gender identity as gay men. The ones who still wanted to transition were happy with their choice.

If 85% of people can be prevented from experiencing lifelong medical challenges because of an ill-informed decision as a child, how is it ethical to ignore that?

Define "wanted to transition." At the age of 6, had you told me I could be a boy I would have been thrilled! I wept bitterly about being a girl.

Did that make me trans, eligible for puberty blockers and gender reassignment surgery? Or was it "just a phase?" Maybe parents are more aware that "just a phase" might be a little more than that, but I would think most ethical doctors would have some series of protocols before starting any course of treatment.

Today I am a (reasonably) well-adjusted heterosexual cisgender woman.

That said, I do believe that gender is a decision an adult needs to make for themselves. Now a 6-year-old is probably not an adult. But when is a person old enough to understand the ramifications of changing one's gender and deciding for themselves? 14? 18?

I haven't done a thorough review of this literature, but from the reading I have done, this seems to have been a particularly crucial element when interpreting such studies. I have not yet found a study in which all the participants were at the point of insisting on hormone therapy or surgery.

A common critique seems to be using too wide of a net when recruiting study participants. For example, including study participants who are gender non-conforming (e.g. a boy who prefers to play with dolls instead of trucks). Questionnaires might include questions like "Do you ever wish you were the opposite gender?" which, like ciao_yall says, could be fueled by many motivations, not just gender dysphoria.

I recall reading about one of these studies years ago and I remember the article I read emphasizing things like cross-dressing not necessarily being an indication that a kid is transgender. Which is different from saying "most kids who want to transition change their minds later."

Another common critique: how studies define desistance (i.e. no longer expressing a desire to live as the opposite gender). Apparently, one of these frequently cited studies classified participants who did not respond to follow-up questionnaires/interviews as 'desisting' for some reason?

Again, I'm not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, but I think the issue is complex, not clear-cut. And I personally haven't seen sufficient evidence to feel confident saying, "It's just a phase. They'll grow out of it." That can also do a great deal of harm to an individual.

[ciao_yall]

The issue here is people transitioning before adulthood. From previous research, of boys who wanted to transition but didn't, as adults about 85% were happy in their gender identity as gay men. The ones who still wanted to transition were happy with their choice.

If 85% of people can be prevented from experiencing lifelong medical challenges because of an ill-informed decision as a child, how is it ethical to ignore that?

Define "wanted to transition." At the age of 6, had you told me I could be a boy I would have been thrilled! I wept bitterly about being a girl.

Did that make me trans, eligible for puberty blockers and gender reassignment surgery? Or was it "just a phase?" Maybe parents are more aware that "just a phase" might be a little more than that, but I would think most ethical doctors would have some series of protocols before starting any course of treatment.

Today I am a (reasonably) well-adjusted heterosexual cisgender woman.

That said, I do believe that gender is a decision an adult needs to make for themselves. Now a 6-year-old is probably not an adult. But when is a person old enough to understand the ramifications of changing one's gender and deciding for themselves? 14? 18?

I haven't done a thorough review of this literature, but from the reading I have done, this seems to have been a particularly crucial element when interpreting such studies. I have not yet found a study in which all the participants were at the point of insisting on hormone therapy or surgery.

A common critique seems to be using too wide of a net when recruiting study participants. For example, including study participants who are gender non-conforming (e.g. a boy who prefers to play with dolls instead of trucks). Questionnaires might include questions like "Do you ever wish you were the opposite gender?" which, like ciao_yall says, could be fueled by many motivations, not just gender dysphoria.

I recall reading about one of these studies years ago and I remember the article I read emphasizing things like cross-dressing not necessarily being an indication that a kid is transgender. Which is different from saying "most kids who want to transition change their minds later."

Another common critique: how studies define desistance (i.e. no longer expressing a desire to live as the opposite gender). Apparently, one of these frequently cited studies classified participants who did not respond to follow-up questionnaires/interviews as 'desisting' for some reason?

Again, I'm not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, but I think the issue is complex, not clear-cut. And I personally haven't seen sufficient evidence to feel confident saying, "It's just a phase. They'll grow out of it." That can also do a great deal of harm to an individual.

Thanks for this, scr.

My niece came out as trans a few years ago. She was well into her 20's by then.

As a child she was all boy. Rough and tumble, made car noises. As a young adult she dated both men and women. She had plenty of LBGT and gender-fluid role models. I'm not sure when she decided that transitioning was for her.