student writing

[Vid]

Folks,

Any of you experienced the burden of editing your student research paper(s). I teach them (step by step) how to write a high quality paper and how to be a good writer, but I am now to the point where I am sitting and writing the whole paper! This at least takes 1-2 months of my time (2-3 revisions) for each single paper.

Any tips about how to improve their writing?

[Ruralguy]

Two or three revisions are typical. There really is no substitute for fairly extensive suggestions for early career (student) people. I would hold the line at actually re -rewriting everything. However, if they are to write more that one paper, then presumably you'd see improvement for any one individual. Do you?

[Caracal]

Folks,

Any of you experienced the burden of editing your student research paper(s). I teach them (step by step) how to write a high quality paper and how to be a good writer, but I am now to the point where I am sitting and writing the whole paper! This at least takes 1-2 months of my time (2-3 revisions) for each single paper.

Any tips about how to improve their writing?

Are we talking about grad students or undergrads?

[Vid]

RuralGuy: I see improvement in the second, third and so on but it is very slow! they are good students, the main problem is "patience", and "consistency" that I donot see it.  I see less writing issues with native students, though.

Caracal: I am talking about grad students.

[marshwiggle]

Folks,

Any of you experienced the burden of editing your student research paper(s). I teach them (step by step) how to write a high quality paper and how to be a good writer, but I am now to the point where I am sitting and writing the whole paper! This at least takes 1-2 months of my time (2-3 revisions) for each single paper.

Any tips about how to improve their writing?

Do you have examples of basically what you want from them? When I started students doing projects, in Phases, the submissions were all over the map, but when I created a couple of examples of my own, in exactly the format I wanted from them, it brought a lot more uniformity to them.

The time it took to create the examples was ultimately well worth it.

[downer]

In a Masters or PhD program? What year? Science or humanities? Or something else.

The details matter.

[the_geneticist]

Give them a basic rubric.  Show them examples of great writing & terrible writing, have them identify what makes it great vs terrible & add to/revise the rubric.  Have them take an example of terrible (yet somehow published) writing and edit it to make it better.
Have them discuss the difference between poorly supported arguments and poorly written sentences.  One means a scrap and replace the content, the other is simply cleaning up the style.  Students often don't understand the difference.

[Vid]

Thank you all, these are great suggestions.

they are in the Engineering field, in the second and third years!

geneticist: I provide them a formatted (word or LaTex) file and in each section I clearly mention how to start each paragraph and how to end, how to convey take home messages,  what wording to use (or not use), etc. They also attend my (research paper) writing workshop every spring-summer.

As I said, the problem I have with them is "patience". For example, I recently spent 1.5 months and revised one of my student' paper (in his third year) and asked him to spend a quality of time and work on my comments and improve the paper. He literally worked two weeks  on the paper and emailed me the second draft last week!! 

I may need to stop doing extensive editing for them and let them take the responsibility! 

[Caracal]

Thank you all, these are great suggestions.

they are in the Engineering field, in the second and third years!

geneticist: I provide them a formatted (word or LaTex) file and in each section I clearly mention how to start each paragraph and how to end, how to convey take home messages,  what wording to use (or not use), etc. They also attend my (research paper) writing workshop every spring-summer.

As I said, the problem I have with them is "patience". For example, I recently spent 1.5 months and revised one of my student' paper (in his third year) and asked him to spend a quality of time and work on my comments and improve the paper. He literally worked two weeks  on the paper and emailed me the second draft last week!! 

I may need to stop doing extensive editing for them and let them take the responsibility!

Not my field, but that's way too much time to be spending on this, right? My advisor gave very detailed comments on my work and I'm sure it took significant amounts of his time, but never months or even weeks on any one chapter or paper. He did occasionally supply language on a sentence level, but he never rewrote anything larger than that. If a paragraph needed reorganization, he wrote that and sometimes suggested what he thought was a better way to do it, but he left the mechanics to me.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

geneticist: I provide them a formatted (word or LaTex) file and in each section I clearly mention how to start each paragraph and how to end, how to convey take home messages,  what wording to use (or not use), etc. They also attend my (research paper) writing workshop every spring-summer.

The sheer amount of inputs (entries for each paragraph before draft is written) looks like micromanaging to me.
I see three variants of what is going on:
1) with detailed inputs students do not get used to write on their own.
2) you are imposing your specific vision on the students, so they become discouraged and unmotivated (i.e. there is no point to write if the result gets completely re-written later)
3) the comment "I see less writing issues with native students, though." may imply that you are getting students from less writing-heavy educational systems.

Solution for 1-2 is to change the procedure to allow students to take ownership of the draft. E.g. get them to produce outline of the paper (similar to what you give them now) on their own.
Part of the solution for 3 may be to go through entire workflow on some smaller text (section of the paper or, say, extended abstract for a conference if applicable).  Dealing with entire paper at once may be overwhelming for inexperienced writers.

[mamselle]

Are you re-writing for publication of their papers, or as classwork assignments?

Not clarified, and in the humanities, that much re-writing would be dishonest.

M.

[Caracal]

geneticist: I provide them a formatted (word or LaTex) file and in each section I clearly mention how to start each paragraph and how to end, how to convey take home messages,  what wording to use (or not use), etc. They also attend my (research paper) writing workshop every spring-summer.

The sheer amount of inputs (entries for each paragraph before draft is written) looks like micromanaging to me.
I see three variants of what is going on:
1) with detailed inputs students do not get used to write on their own.
2) you are imposing your specific vision on the students, so they become discouraged and unmotivated (i.e. there is no point to write if the result gets completely re-written later)

All disciplines have conventions and expectations in terms of writing and grad students need some help in mastering them. However, it seems like you might be conflating conventions with broader preferences you have and being too prescriptive.

As for editing, you really usually only want to actually supply languages in small ways. Crossing out a word or rearranging an occasional confusing sentence is fine. Sometimes if you think a student is struggling to convey an idea, it can make sense to put a comment like "maybe something like this?" and then supply a sentence or two. However, the student should get to write their own paper, under your supervision. If something is too vague, or confusing, you should put that in a comment and let the student fix the problem.

[Puget]

It does sound like you might be micro-managing to the point they don't get a chance to actually learn. I try not to do too much direct editing--  I'll make some direct sentence-level edits in later drafts, just like I would do writing with any collaborator, but on early drafts I try to give more comments than direct edits. I may edit one section as an example, with lots of comments on why I'm making those edits, and then instruct them to edit the rest along those lines.

It may also be that your expectations are just unrealistic-- the first paper or two grad students write are going to be a mess, it just takes time and practice to learn. Remember that a scientific journal article is a very specific genre, so this is true even if they are good writers in general. You're going to need to develop some patience and empathy, and convey that to them so they don't give up.

I like to tell my grad students about how as a new grad student who thought (and had been told) I was a very good writer was shocked at having to go through dozens of drafts with my advisor, who admittedly had very high standards. By my final year however, we were doing far fewer drafts, and I realized I had successfully internalized the feedback she used to provide, and become a far better writer as a result. I try to normalize this process for them (while pointing out, hard to believe as it may be, I'm not nearly as exacting as my advisor was, for better or worse!), reassure them that lots of comments and revisions are part of the process, and indeed that we do the same with our grown-up collaborators and it always improves the paper.

Help them see it as a collaboration, not an evaluation. After all, you're trying to train junior colleagues right?

[Vid]

mamselle: these papers are parts of their thesis!

Caracal: I have three other PhD. students (2 native, one international) and I do minimum revision/comments with their papers. They are self-driven, to the point, and I sometimes amaze with their writing! 

My apologies if I was unclear, all. But there is nothing to do with micromanaging here actually! These students just donot spend much time on writing. we typically publish high q papers and that they need to work harder/longer on the writing, etc.--- in my opinion scientific writing is still an art and it is not much different from writing a sales document: they need to learn how to sell their work to their peers, they need to develop skills to tell their story well (helping them along the way, though!). 

[Caracal]

mamselle: these papers are parts of their thesis!

Caracal: I have three other PhD. students (2 native, one international) and I do minimum revision/comments with their papers. They are self-driven, to the point, and I sometimes amaze with their writing! 

My apologies if I was unclear, all. But there is nothing to do with micromanaging here actually! These students just donot spend much time on writing. we typically publish high q papers and that they need to work harder/longer on the writing, etc.--- in my opinion scientific writing is still an art and it is not much different from writing a sales document: they need to learn how to sell their work to their peers, they need to develop skills to tell their story well (helping them along the way, though!).

In that case, it sounds like you need to spend less time with the rewriting and more time having frank conversations with these students about what is expected in the profession in terms of writing.