Biden 2+2 education proposal

[Hibush]

Today Pres Biden came out with a proposal to make four more years of education cost much less for those without the means to pay for them. Those of us in colleges thought "four more years" meant college, but in fact it was two years of community college and two of pre-K. I expect Dr. Jill had a lot of input on these priorities.

Nevertheless, how will a reduced cost for CCs as proposed improve access to education?

What is the greatest risk of grifter companies starting eligible CCs to siphon of this money?

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness? Some four and five year olds' lives just don't have the experiences that bode well for college. Will some of them get the intellectual development during those years that makes them better learners, more likely to get to college and more likely to study once there?

[mahagonny]

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness? Some four and five year olds' lives just don't have the experiences that bode well for college. Will some of them get the intellectual development during those years that makes them better learners, more likely to get to college and more likely to study once there?

That much sooner to teach them what anti-social racist wretches they are.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Today Pres Biden came out with a proposal to make four more years of education cost much less for those without the means to pay for them. Those of us in colleges thought "four more years" meant college, but in fact it was two years of community college and two of pre-K. I expect Dr. Jill had a lot of input on these priorities.

Nevertheless, how will a reduced cost for CCs as proposed improve access to education?

What is the greatest risk of grifter companies starting eligible CCs to siphon of this money?

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness? Some four and five year olds' lives just don't have the experiences that bode well for college. Will some of them get the intellectual development during those years that makes them better learners, more likely to get to college and more likely to study once there?

Some of the critiques are legitimate (in particular, the point about grifter companies), but making college and pre-K more accessible would clearly be a good thing overall. In policy terms, education has a large multiplier effect and so improving access would benefit the national economy, and moreover it would improve the lives of individuals who are able to earn a degree that might otherwise be out of reach.

[Hegemony]

I wish they'd just pour the money into improving high schools (and elementary schools), so a high school degree would actually warrant something about the graduate's literacy and preparation for life. Paying teachers more, and thereby attracting better teachers, would also do a lot. I know there are many excellent hard-working teachers out there. I also know, and have experienced, a number who had no business being in a classroom. My own high school education, for instance, involved a Speech teacher who insisted that a short oral story was called an "antidote" (rather than "anecdote") and would mark you wrong if you didn't spell it that way. And that was actually one of the least of her problems — hitting students hard with rulers was one of her other problems. It's nice that students will get another chance at any education at a free community college, but rather than free remedial education, what about making education good enough that they don't need to be remediated?

[dismalist]

Most of college education is about signalling, so free CC just fuels the arms race. Big waste of time and money.

[Aster]

CC's already are the cheapest game in town, by a very significant margin. It's not really a thing in the U.S. that people are excluded from Higher Education because of cost, not at CC's anyway.

Trying to undercut 4-year universities' standard 4-year cohort model strikes me as pretty narrow sighted and short sighted, and quite frankly, makes Jill Biden appear incompetent when she's advocating her 2+2 proposals. She's certainly not doing the 4-year universities any favors, and if she had worked administratively at all in CC's, she'd know that she's probably not helping the CC's out either. If anything, she has her priorities backwards.

My professional opinion is pretty low of Jill Biden's holistic understanding of the Higher Education mission.  Most of us who work in Higher Education and who work closely with CC's understand their strengths and weaknesses, But Jill Biden doesn't seem to understand their *weaknesses* at all.  I get the impression that she's held very sheltered faculty positions, and that entirely at CC's. The gaps in her professional training and experience are big enough to drive trucks through. From the purely *academic course* sub-component of the Higher Education mission, CC's may for *some* college majors reasonably fill in the void for the first two years. But for lots of other college majors (namely many of the STEM ones), *and* for the enrichment sub-component of Higher Education (e.g., extracurricular activities, extracurricular options), most CC's fall way short. Few CC's offer anywhere near the same volume and flexibility of general education electives as that of pretty much any 4-year university. Few CC's offer anything remotely similar to the standard academic advising services found at any 4-year university. There are many things that you either don't get at all or don't get very well at CC's but that are both normal and standard at any 4-year university. It really bothers me that Jill Biden just seems to ignore all of that.

Most students who follow the traditional 4-year university route don't want to attend a community college for the same reason that we don't all choose to do our grocery shopping at the dollar store. Simply put, you don't get what you don't pay for. This is not to say that dollar stores do not do what they are designed to do, and do it well. They certainly are cheap, and they certainly are easy to walk into. But those are really their only two strong points.

I agree with Hegemony that if there's a problem in the U.S. education system in dire need of attention, it's our K-12 system. Considering Jill Biden's earlier background as a high school teacher, one would think that she'd be cognizant of the severe problems today in that sector. There are real and serious problems there.

But messing around with 2+2 plans? I have two words for that; Distraction, and Unnecessary.

[Hegemony]

Well, I know a number of students who couldn't afford community college, or who had to drop out in the middle because they couldn't afford it, so I'm not convinced that "It's not really a thing in the U.S. that people are excluded from Higher Education because of cost, not at CC's anyway." Our local community college is around $5000 per year for in-state students, assuming you live at home.  That's a lot more than a lot of families have. The median household (not per-person) income in my rural town is $27,000 per year. That's not the kind of job that warrants taking out a $10,000 loan (and forgoing two years of possible income). The community college's solution to this problem is "Well, just move to a place that has better-paying jobs." But the safety net of living in a place abounding with family to help you out is not insignificant. Moving to a big city just to try to get a slightly better paying job with your A.A. degree — I dunno, doesn't seem so attractive to me.

Anyway, my point is that community college is not already so cheap that anyone can afford it. I think all higher education should be cheaper. But first I think K-12 should be much better.

[dismalist]

CC's already are the cheapest game in town, by a very significant margin. It's not really a thing in the U.S. that people are excluded from Higher Education because of cost, not at CC's anyway.

And with the subsidies, price will rise equally [until there are more and bigger CC's]. :-)

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness?

If better access to pre-K allows fewer parents to drop from workforce (or pursue more lucrative career paths)
=> such families may have more resources during high-school years (e.g. tutors, enrichment activities etc)
=> more of them may have enough money to pay for university

[downer]

Of course I support the idea that k-12 education should be better.

But what I mostly see is students with few skills and little knowledge being graduated.

My impression is that an essential part to improving k-12 education is having higher standards and not graduating students who know nothing.

But that's not politically feasible.

Some states do a better job than others. And some countries do a great job. Most impressive in my experience have been students from eastern european countries. I suspect the political expectations are very different there.

As for any Biden proposal, presumably it will be completely watered down and subject to all sorts of compromise before it gets close to being enacted.

[ciao_yall]

Today Pres Biden came out with a proposal to make four more years of education cost much less for those without the means to pay for them. Those of us in colleges thought "four more years" meant college, but in fact it was two years of community college and two of pre-K. I expect Dr. Jill had a lot of input on these priorities.

Nevertheless, how will a reduced cost for CCs as proposed improve access to education?

In California CC's are very cheap. The (opportunity) cost is the time a student spends in class and studying instead of working in construction or bartending or whatever.

So, are we willing to make it worth a student's while to go to school while paying their bills and supporting their families? Because not all students are willing (or able) to live with their parents, without their own children or elder care or other responsibilities.

What is the greatest risk of grifter companies starting eligible CCs to siphon off this money?

Pretty high. But public colleges and universities move a bit too slowly to take advantage of market changes. So it's up to the large publics to respond to changing student needs.

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness? Some four and five year olds' lives just don't have the experiences that bode well for college. Will some of them get the intellectual development during those years that makes them better learners, more likely to get to college and more likely to study once there?

Research shows that students who had pre-K have dramatically better outcomes in school, graduation, and less likely to be justice involved. The ROI is really high - a few dollars of pre-K saves many dollars of prison later. I'll let someone else critique that research, but it does show that the sooner we invest in children's education, the better off as a society we are.

[ciao_yall]

CC's already are the cheapest game in town, by a very significant margin. It's not really a thing in the U.S. that people are excluded from Higher Education because of cost, not at CC's anyway.

Trying to undercut 4-year universities' standard 4-year cohort model strikes me as pretty narrow sighted and short sighted, and quite frankly, makes Jill Biden appear incompetent when she's advocating her 2+2 proposals. She's certainly not doing the 4-year universities any favors, and if she had worked administratively at all in CC's, she'd know that she's probably not helping the CC's out either. If anything, she has her priorities backwards.

My professional opinion is pretty low of Jill Biden's holistic understanding of the Higher Education mission.  Most of us who work in Higher Education and who work closely with CC's understand their strengths and weaknesses, But Jill Biden doesn't seem to understand their *weaknesses* at all.  I get the impression that she's held very sheltered faculty positions, and that entirely at CC's. The gaps in her professional training and experience are big enough to drive trucks through. From the purely *academic course* sub-component of the Higher Education mission, CC's may for *some* college majors reasonably fill in the void for the first two years. But for lots of other college majors (namely many of the STEM ones), *and* for the enrichment sub-component of Higher Education (e.g., extracurricular activities, extracurricular options), most CC's fall way short. Few CC's offer anywhere near the same volume and flexibility of general education electives as that of pretty much any 4-year university. Few CC's offer anything remotely similar to the standard academic advising services found at any 4-year university. There are many things that you either don't get at all or don't get very well at CC's but that are both normal and standard at any 4-year university. It really bothers me that Jill Biden just seems to ignore all of that.

Most students who follow the traditional 4-year university route don't want to attend a community college for the same reason that we don't all choose to do our grocery shopping at the dollar store. Simply put, you don't get what you don't pay for. This is not to say that dollar stores do not do what they are designed to do, and do it well. They certainly are cheap, and they certainly are easy to walk into. But those are really their only two strong points.

I agree with Hegemony that if there's a problem in the U.S. education system in dire need of attention, it's our K-12 system. Considering Jill Biden's earlier background as a high school teacher, one would think that she'd be cognizant of the severe problems today in that sector. There are real and serious problems there.

But messing around with 2+2 plans? I have two words for that; Distraction, and Unnecessary.

I agree with you 100% on this. And, for students whose own parents went to college, those kids are going straight to 4-years and dorms.

What we are looking at is the students whose parents didn't go to college, don't understand the investment, and are anxious about the cost of tuition, meal plans, and living on campus. Encouraging these students to get to a CC where they can be socialized about the importance of a college education, and given the agency to get the resources needed to finish out a Bachelor's degree, could dramatically increase the number of BA/BS holders in the USA and all the benefits.

A super-charged high school diploma is not the answer.

[kaysixteen]

Hegemony is certainly correct to note that we need to do much better with our k12 system in this country, *at least*, with those k12 schools which service inner-cities and rural America, the schools in which might as well be on Mars in comparison with suburbia, and most private hss.  But money is not necessarily always the problem part of this here-- many city school systems, for instance, spend a lot of money per kid, but much of this money never even sees a school building, let alone a classroom where there are actual kids.  And even where schooling is better, just having 'good schools' doth not mean that kids from many of these families are going to be able to profit from them, without dealing with all the other issues in their lives.   What to do about these is rather a harder problem to deal with...

[marshwiggle]

In the longer term, how much will expanded Pre-K increase college readiness?

If better access to pre-K allows fewer parents to drop from workforce (or pursue more lucrative career paths)
=> such families may have more resources during high-school years (e.g. tutors, enrichment activities etc)
=> more of them may have enough money to pay for university

In other places (such as here in Canada) expanding pre-k is an easy way to basically subsidize childcare but under a different guise (i.e. "education") and with the money coming out of a different government pocket. Whether it benefits students in the long run is less important than how many more women can be in the workforce.

[apl68]

Research shows that students who had pre-K have dramatically better outcomes in school, graduation, and less likely to be justice involved. The ROI is really high - a few dollars of pre-K saves many dollars of prison later. I'll let someone else critique that research, but it does show that the sooner we invest in children's education, the better off as a society we are.

Dolly Parton's Imagination Library, an early literacy program that costs $25 per year per child to mail age-appropriate books each month to a child's home from birth to age five, correlates strongly with better educational outcomes.  A little timely investment at that stage of life can go a LONG way.