tenure applications loaded up with virtual conferences

[lightning]

Some junior colleagues are going up for tenure this Fall, and they have submitted dossiers with a boatload of virtual conference presentations.

One of the advantages of virtual conferences is their convenience. They're so convenient that it's possible to "attend" many more conferences than what would normally be possible if conferences were in their normal format.

What do all of you think about someone who has beefed up their resume with virtual conference presentations? Do they carry the same value? The literal reading of our tenure guidelines has no provision for virtual conferences.

Since there were no in-person conferences in the past 16 months, I can't see a justifiable reason to de-value the currency of virtual conferences against in-person conferences. At the same time . . . something about this just bothers me.

Get off my lawn!!!!

[Parasaurolophus]

From my side of the table, virtual conference presentations seem like they should count for as much as normal presentations--that's to say, for a little but not a ton. I think it's fine evidence of engagement with the discipline, but less status-burnishing than, say, a pile of colloquium invitations, edited collection invitations, prizes, keynote addresses, conference organization, etc.


But, y'know. It does show some interest and initiative. I've hardly done any virtual conferencing this last year (mostly because I've been organizing three big ones in my subfield), even though it's obviously a lot easier. But I also have around fifty under my belt, so it's not like another two or three or ten would make a difference to anyone looking at my file.

[Hegemony]

Nobody's going to have any in-person conference invitations from this past year, so virtual ones show some initiative, anyway. But I've never seen conference presentations of any kind make or break a tenure file, so really the matter is trivial.

[ergative]

Nobody's going to have any in-person conference invitations from this past year, so virtual ones show some initiative, anyway. But I've never seen conference presentations of any kind make or break a tenure file, so really the matter is trivial.

If you reward in-person presentations over virtual presentations for this past year, then you are sending a message that you want people to literally risk their lives for tenure. Don't do that.

[simpleSimon]

Nobody's going to have any in-person conference invitations from this past year, so virtual ones show some initiative, anyway. But I've never seen conference presentations of any kind make or break a tenure file, so really the matter is trivial.

This.  And I have chaired the P&T committee for years.

[Ruralguy]

Lightning-

I don't recall what type of school you are at and what your school emphasizes in its formula for tenure. Could you clarify? That might lead to a more meaningful answer, though conceptually I agree with what most people are saying here.  For instance, my school demands some peer reviewed work ( articles, books or creative works in the arts), but emphasizes teaching and probably overweights service compared to most schools. Though we wouldn't see this as a substitute for any peer reviewed work, we'd see it as almost as valuable as slightly more peer reviewed work with minimal conferences. I have served on P and T and chaired the policy committee (oversees policy on tenure and everything else dealing with faculty).

[the_geneticist]

Nobody's going to have any in-person conference invitations from this past year, so virtual ones show some initiative, anyway. But I've never seen conference presentations of any kind make or break a tenure file, so really the matter is trivial.

If you reward in-person presentations over virtual presentations for this past year, then you are sending a message that you want people to literally risk their lives for tenure. Don't do that.

Exactly.  Presenting at virtual conferences mean the person was productive and engaged in their scientific community.  But it's a minor part of a tenure file.  I'd be more concerned about how to handle teaching evaluations and research productively in a fair and ethical manner given the massive disruption of the pandemic.  I know our students HATED online classes with a fiery passion.  And junior faculty don't have 10+ years of prior data kicking around to analyze & publish if they couldn't be in their lab space.  Add in the complication of junior faculty being even more likely to have young children & female junior faculty being disproportionately responsible for the childcare/schooling from home and it's going to be a tangled mess.
tl;dr virtual conferences are the least of your concerns

[larryc]

I would suggest that virtual conference presentations are perhaps even more valuable in terms of impact than are conferences in meat space.

I was on the planning committee of a virtual regional history conference last fall. We were delighted that many sessions topped 100 viewers, and sometimes twice that when you counted folks who watched the session in the two weeks after it ended (we took the videos down after that time).

Never in the whole decades-long history of this conference had any session had 100 attendees. Or 100 chairs, so it is just as well. I have presented at this conference to groups of 12-30.

The whole conference presentation thing has always been a sketchy part of the scholarship record to me. In my discipline, history, you almost never submit a complete paper to get accepted to a conference, you present an abstract of a few hundred words at most. This rewards bullshit artists, which is why my proposals are always accepted. And unless you were in the room you have no idea what a given "Presented at X Conference" line on a CV really means. Did the person present an electrifying tour-de-force to a packed hall, a presentation so rich in provocative ideas that it was the talk of the hotel bar for the next three days and resulted in multiple publisher inquiries? Or did they mumble their way through a half-assed rehash of some Wikipedia articles to a Sunday morning audience of three people with their suitcases who were checking their phones to see if their Uber was ready? I have seen both kinds of presentations, and done the latter myself. But when I got back home I told everyone how I rocked it.

Anyway--yes those virtual conference presentation absolutely count.

[Ruralguy]

The bullshit factor is fairly low in the sciences. Yes, true, a few percent of abstracts never get published, but the vast majority do. So, nobody really cares if some don't. They just figure they won't take anything too seriously until it is published. Or, if the did care about the work for a while, it will die off if not published. Certainly the field in general won't give much credence to a mumbles who never publishes. A particular school somewhere might, but I think the incidences of unpublished mumbles getting more than published decent speakers is probably pretty low.

[Ruralguy]

One thing to remember is that for marginal cases, marginal accomplishments might make the difference. A few more conferences might matter, a couple of classes taught better might matter vigorous service might matter. No, no slam dunk cases ever got dunked on 100 video conferences and an article or two, but I'm talking about the myeh cases. Of course, institution type matters. I can say that even for marginal cases, 50 video conferences probably won't mean much more than ten, though usually, something is better than nothing. That is, on conferences would get attention.

[pink_]

I am at a teaching-intensive SLAC, and I would be thrilled to see my junior colleagues participating in virtual conferences. It's been next to impossible for many of us to be productive since March 2020, so that your colleagues have been able to keep momentum going on their scholarship despite everything else is impressive to me.

And as someone who has moderated and presented a few papers myself over the last year, I want to underline what Larry said. At a usual conference session, we're lucky to have 15 or 20 people in the audience. Often the numbers can be much smaller, especially if scheduled on the first or the last day of a conference. The panel I was on earlier this week had 80 people.I watched one at in the spring that had 100.

But also, as I mentioned, I am at a teaching-intensive place.We have much lower publication expectations than some of you. Conferencing isn't everything when it comes to the research component of a tenure and promotion application, but it's big piece of the pie.

[Ruralguy]

You do realize that half the people in any video internet meeting will be working on other things while they are listening?  That's one reason why there are so many more (other than no need to travel, which some of us despise with the fire of a million suns).

Anyway, I agree with the general point.

[clean]

The COVID issue has only been less than 2 years, so IF someone has 'beefed up' their resume as a reaction to COVID and were otherwise weak, then I would contend that this may be 'too little too late'.  IF they had been doing online conferences exclusively and or excessively throughout, then Im not sure what to say.  IF they have family situations that make it impracticable over the last 6 years to travel but they found a way to present, that may be laudable.

Another issue would be the type of place that is reviewing the application. Here, publications count and presentations count in a lower level category of engagement.  Also presentation of the same work over and over again would be discounted a lot. 

But if the discipline is one where presentation is highly valued and publication is rare, then that is outside my experience.  I would fall back to see if the online presentations were a last ditch attempt to build the 'numbers'.  IF that is the case, then the question would be what faculty member are we evaluating to offer the 'contract without renewal'?  The one that did nearly nothing for many years and then, when the deadline approached did everything to boost numbers, or one that has worked consistently over time?

[mleok]

You do realize that half the people in any video internet meeting will be working on other things while they are listening? 

Yes, but that's no different from being at a conference in person, where most people are catching up on their emails.

[Ruralguy]

I guess so.