Dubious master's degrees

[Hegemony]

The basic problem is inadequate funding of primary and secondary schools, which is related to basing funding on property taxes.

I grew up in a poverty-stricken area, and the schools were terrible. They couldn't get many good teachers for the kind of pay they offered, so they got mostly pretty dismal teachers. Then the teachers had huge classes, and many of the students had huge problems. Some of them were living in cars, some had no running water, some had witnessed terrible violence. When you have a class of 38 and at least half of your students come from conditions like these, you're not going to have much time to give them individual attention and get them up to speed, even if you were a superb teacher, which most of the teachers were not. The school urgently needed smaller classes, a support system of social workers, and teachers who were up to the job. But there weren't even enough books for every student to get one. I may have mentioned my math class, in which drugs were sold openly — to the teacher.

So things were so bad that the school system implemented a minimum requirement for high school graduation: you had to be able to read at the sixth-grade level. Note that high school graduation takes place after 12th grade. After a few years of this, they had to rescind the rule, because so few students were able to graduate. They simply couldn't pass the 6th-grade-reading-level requirement. Way fewer than half the students passed the requirement, in my recollection.

So in those circumstances, employers are going to use a college degree as a guarantee that an applicant has some chance of being able to read and write. If we want that to stop, we need to fund schools so they can actually educate the students. I'm not holding out much hope.

[marshwiggle]

So in those circumstances, employers are going to use a college degree as a guarantee that an applicant has some chance of being able to read and write. If we want that to stop, we need to fund schools so they can actually educate the students. I'm not holding out much hope.

One of the things about American culture that this illustrates is the problem with who pays for things. In most countries, people accept that healthcare and education are worth paying for, so that there is a minimum standard for everyone. That requires higher taxes. In the US, opposition on the right is related to raising taxes. However, on the left, there is an unwillingness to come to grips with finite resources. "Make the rich pay" still doesn't cover all of the demands that will be placed on the system. (And even on here, among highly educated people, there have been claims that the government should simply print more money since it's not "real".) 

The point is, other countries recognize that to have universal services, there need to be limits on what services are delivered and how. In the US, there doesn't seem to be a recognition on the left that the highest standard of services available isn't compatible with complete public funding. (For instance, calls to simply forgive student debt and/or make all education "free" are unsustainable because institutions delivering services will be able to raise prices indiscriminately.)

I don't see how this can change, since neither side accepts finite limits of what resources are available, and what limits would be reasonable on what can be universally provided.

[dismalist]

So in those circumstances, employers are going to use a college degree as a guarantee that an applicant has some chance of being able to read and write. If we want that to stop, we need to fund schools so they can actually educate the students. I'm not holding out much hope.

...

The point is, other countries recognize that to have universal services, there need to be limits on what services are delivered and how. In the US, there doesn't seem to be a recognition on the left that the highest standard of services available isn't compatible with complete public funding. (For instance, calls to simply forgive student debt and/or make all education "free" are unsustainable because institutions delivering services will be able to raise prices indiscriminately.)

I don't see how this can change, since neither side accepts finite limits of what resources are available, and what limits would be reasonable on what can be universally provided.

I knew this would happen: Some people upthread believe there is too much spent on higher education, and an argument is made that more must be spent on other education. Most of high school is signalling, too, so we should spend less.

[Vkw10]

The basic problem is inadequate funding of primary and secondary schools, which is related to basing funding on property taxes.

The USA doesn't really have an education system, just as it doesn't really have a health care system. Instead, we have hundreds of systems, governed and funded by a mix of local, state, and national agencies and taxes. Some schools are well-funded, others aren't.

[dismalist]

The basic problem is inadequate funding of primary and secondary schools, which is related to basing funding on property taxes.

The USA doesn't really have an education system, just as it doesn't really have a health care system. Instead, we have hundreds of systems, governed and funded by a mix of local, state, and national agencies and taxes. Some schools are well-funded, others aren't.

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

[mleok]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

[dismalist]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

OK. Ban contributions.

[mleok]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

OK. Ban contributions.

Yeah, that would just have the effect of making all public schools equally mediocre, and moving money to private tutoring instead.

[dismalist]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

OK. Ban contributions.

Yeah, that would just have the effect of making all public schools equally mediocre, and moving money to private tutoring instead.

The point is that it's mostly signalling. Therefore, less is more.

[mleok]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

OK. Ban contributions.

Yeah, that would just have the effect of making all public schools equally mediocre, and moving money to private tutoring instead.

The point is that it's mostly signalling. Therefore, less is more.

That's your common refrain, but the ability to read and write isn't just about signaling.

[dismalist]

Although local school spending relies heavily on property-tax revenue, state and federal spending ensure that a state's per-pupil spending is comparable across race and socioeconomic status.

That is not consistent with my experience of local public K-12 education. In particular, it does not take into account the substantial amount of additional funds infused through the PTA in affluent neighborhoods.

OK. Ban contributions.

Yeah, that would just have the effect of making all public schools equally mediocre, and moving money to private tutoring instead.

The point is that it's mostly signalling. Therefore, less is more.

That's your common refrain, but the ability to read and write isn't just about signaling.

Never said it was. :-)