How many people practice "Diversity Lite"?

[marshwiggle]

Rather than include this in another thread, I thought it might warrant its own.

When I hire TAs, I'm always on the lookout for good candidates who don't fit the typical mould. (In my area of STEM, most students are male, for instance.) Because I don't control who applies to be a TA, I can't arbitrarily decide to try to hire people who fit particular demographics. When I do get an applicant who is really good, and happens to be (for instance) a woman in a hijab, I'm glad to be able to hire them.

I would guess that a lot of people do similar things. I'm wary of things like targets and quotas precisely because I don't control the applicant pool, so I can't make any sort of guarantees, and I wouldn't want to hire a decidedly inferior applicant just to tick a box. (Doing so would be unfair to better applicants, and if the TA's performance was mediocre, it would create bias against that group in students' minds, which would be the opposite of what was intended.)

Am I unusual in this?

[ciao_yall]

I wouldn't call that "diversity lite." I would say that is the goal of diversity. Among talented people, you want a different set of perspectives that comes with all that color-national-origin-gender stuff. And, you would like your students to interact with different types of people.

For example, at our college a large percentage of students in a certain ethnic group is placed in basic skills math. We have several faculty in that same ethnic group who have Master's degrees in math. There are some who say those faculty should teach basic skills math because that way students will see someone who looks like them.

Others say let them teach what they want, based on seniority like everyone else. It respects their academic accomplishments, and it's good for advanced students to see someone who looks (presumably) different from themselves doing math.

And, the students of that ethnic group will find those faculty anyway. Wouldn't we rather the students hear faculty talk about the cool things they get to do instead of "yeah, I'm stuck here..."

[Ruralguy]

Ciao-

What do the profs in that ethnic group say? I mean, what do they want to do? Do they tend to be monolithic? Is their division? Has anyone bothered to ask? I think I would lean towards being in the "ask them" group if, especially if that is what you do with everybody else. Also, if their is a healthy discussion about this somewhere on campus, perhaps you can see what other departments do. Also, being aware of national data, as we discussed on the other thread, could be helpful.

Marsh-

It sounds like you value diversity but don't want an institution forcing it on you. Fair enough. Its not "diversity lite," but diversity by choice and personal enlightenment instead of from institutional directive. I understand the mindset because I share it on other things, but I am afraid that leaving most folks on their own, even very well meaning ones, age old biases would creep in and keep diversity to a minimum.

[marshwiggle]

Marsh-

It sounds like you value diversity but don't want an institution forcing it on you. Fair enough. Its not "diversity lite," but diversity by choice and personal enlightenment instead of from institutional directive. I understand the mindset because I share it on other things, but I am afraid that leaving most folks on their own, even very well meaning ones, age old biases would creep in and keep diversity to a minimum.

I think there are many issues where normal, well-meaning people have traditionally tried to do the right thing, but that impatient zealots demanding immediate, concrete results alienate these would-be allies and see them as enemies.  So then people who believe in things like the principle of diversity wind up either having to support problematic initiatives of the zealots or being labelled as against diversity.

(This applies in any number of areas; the people frustrated with what they perceive as the slow pace of social change try to push for more revolutionary change while essentially disregarding all of the historical progress to date since it hasn't already produced what the want to see. They refuse to realize that the only reason their goals even get any serious consideration is because of the very history which they ignore.)

[ciao_yall]

Ciao-

What do the profs in that ethnic group say? I mean, what do they want to do? Do they tend to be monolithic? Is their division? Has anyone bothered to ask? I think I would lean towards being in the "ask them" group if, especially if that is what you do with everybody else. Also, if their is a healthy discussion about this somewhere on campus, perhaps you can see what other departments do. Also, being aware of national data, as we discussed on the other thread, could be helpful.

Guess what? They vary! That's why I say let them teach what they want. If they want to teach basic skills, great. If they want to teach advanced math, that's great too. As one builds seniority, one gets more control over their teaching schedule and topics.

[Caracal]

Rather than include this in another thread, I thought it might warrant its own.

When I hire TAs, I'm always on the lookout for good candidates who don't fit the typical mould. (In my area of STEM, most students are male, for instance.) Because I don't control who applies to be a TA, I can't arbitrarily decide to try to hire people who fit particular demographics. When I do get an applicant who is really good, and happens to be (for instance) a woman in a hijab, I'm glad to be able to hire them.

I would guess that a lot of people do similar things. I'm wary of things like targets and quotas precisely because I don't control the applicant pool, so I can't make any sort of guarantees, and I wouldn't want to hire a decidedly inferior applicant just to tick a box. (Doing so would be unfair to better applicants, and if the TA's performance was mediocre, it would create bias against that group in students' minds, which would be the opposite of what was intended.)

Am I unusual in this?

What you're describing is basically how affirmative action is supposed to work. You recognize that some groups are underrepresented in your field, and you presumably think it would be better if that was less true. Presumably, you both want to encourage and help out students who don't fit the traditional mold by giving them TAships, and create an environment in your classes that is welcoming and encouraging to students who also don't fit that traditional mold.

I think there's a lot to be said for going into any sort of search with the mindset that it would be great if you could find a highly qualified candidate who has a different background than all the people already there.

[Ruralguy]

No surprise there! I guess this ends up being an unintended consequence, or maybe an intended one not spoken about: In an attempt to retain minority students and encourage them to go far, you hire more people from that minority group only to have them teaching classes filled with students of the same minority group who may barely be able to get by and might not be very interested in that class at all.  Not that I don't face the same dilemma every semester, but mostly with white students!

[kiana]

For example, at our college a large percentage of students in a certain ethnic group is placed in basic skills math. We have several faculty in that same ethnic group who have Master's degrees in math. There are some who say those faculty should teach basic skills math because that way students will see someone who looks like them.

In addition to the other points made, which I agree with, I would be really concerned about possibly giving the students the impression of "well yeah but they're only qualified to teach basic skills math, once you get to advanced math the REAL qualified people will take over".

[mahagonny]

If you as a freshman were to think that you need a teacher who looks like you in order to excel in a subject, you wouldn't be having a diversity-valuing experience. Not so much.  Although the people who hired that TA are getting an addition to the staff that they like.

[Caracal]

It isn't important that any particular student have a TA or instructor of the same gender or race. It is worthwhile, within the parameters that Marshwiggle is talking about, to have a more diverse group of TAs or instructors.

[mahagonny]

It isn't important that any particular student have a TA or instructor of the same gender or race. It is worthwhile, within the parameters that Marshwiggle is talking about, to have a more diverse group of TAs or instructors.

Sure; not having tenure protections they're not likely to let anyone know if they think theories of math having been being racistly are absurd. So you get the appearance of diversity, without the hassle.

[Ruralguy]

Its my impression that most people who buy into diversity initiatives don't think that a student *must* have an instructor of the same race/gender (if they exist) or even that  their learning will necessarily be better just because of an instructor of the same race/gender.  Its more about having some instructors that match the background of some of the students, or that if you wish to recruit more students and perhaps retain them, then it helps to have some professors that are similar to the potential students. I know that this can be turned around: If a school is happy having pretty much all white students with a pretty much all white faculty, then do they have to bother changing anything?  I suppose that my answer would be that if that's sustainable and they are a private college, then you can probably do that for as long as you want. 

[fizzycist]

Its my impression that most people who buy into diversity initiatives don't think that a student *must* have an instructor of the same race/gender (if they exist) or even that  their learning will necessarily be better just because of an instructor of the same race/gender.  Its more about having some instructors that match the background of some of the students, or that if you wish to recruit more students and perhaps retain them, then it helps to have some professors that are similar to the potential students. I know that this can be turned around: If a school is happy having pretty much all white students with a pretty much all white faculty, then do they have to bother changing anything?  I suppose that my answer would be that if that's sustainable and they are a private college, then you can probably do that for as long as you want.

Legally: probably fine, KKK also allowed to exist.
Ethically: seems like a problem, are you really doing your best to educate by offering a Whites-only college experience?
Morally: borderline disaster. In the limit that all universities adopt similar policy we are back to full on segregation.

[marshwiggle]

Its my impression that most people who buy into diversity initiatives don't think that a student *must* have an instructor of the same race/gender (if they exist) or even that  their learning will necessarily be better just because of an instructor of the same race/gender.  Its more about having some instructors that match the background of some of the students, or that if you wish to recruit more students and perhaps retain them, then it helps to have some professors that are similar to the potential students. I know that this can be turned around: If a school is happy having pretty much all white students with a pretty much all white faculty, then do they have to bother changing anything?  I suppose that my answer would be that if that's sustainable and they are a private college, then you can probably do that for as long as you want.

Legally: probably fine, KKK also allowed to exist.
Ethically: seems like a problem, are you really doing your best to educate by offering a Whites-only college experience?
Morally: borderline disaster. In the limit that all universities adopt similar policy we are back to full on segregation.

It's only segregation when you restrict who can attend; as long as people are making their own free choice, it's just marketing. As long as your "policy" doesn't explicitly exclude certain types of people, then it's nothing like historic segregation.

[dismalist]

Its my impression that most people who buy into diversity initiatives don't think that a student *must* have an instructor of the same race/gender (if they exist) or even that  their learning will necessarily be better just because of an instructor of the same race/gender.  Its more about having some instructors that match the background of some of the students, or that if you wish to recruit more students and perhaps retain them, then it helps to have some professors that are similar to the potential students. I know that this can be turned around: If a school is happy having pretty much all white students with a pretty much all white faculty, then do they have to bother changing anything?  I suppose that my answer would be that if that's sustainable and they are a private college, then you can probably do that for as long as you want.

Legally: probably fine, KKK also allowed to exist.
Ethically: seems like a problem, are you really doing your best to educate by offering a Whites-only college experience?
Morally: borderline disaster. In the limit that all universities adopt similar policy we are back to full on segregation.

It's only segregation when you restrict who can attend; as long as people are making their own free choice, it's just marketing. As long as your "policy" doesn't explicitly exclude certain types of people, then it's nothing like historic segregation.

Yes. I don't think all universities would become monochrome Black or White. We'd have some of each, and some mixed. There would not be "full on" segregation by any means. Would not be legal to exclude, by the way. Would have to come about by free choice. Interestingly, perhaps tellingly, some Black students like separate dorms. Nothing wrong with that, if White students receive the same right and if mixed dorms were also offered. We already have de facto Black colleges.

The push for diversity is going hand in hand with inclusiveness, welcomingness,  and so on. That is a barrier to choice and to a solution everybody can be happy with.