Vaccine Mandates for faculty, staff, and students?

[niwon88]

According to the CHE [https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/live-coronavirus-updates/heres-a-list-of-colleges-that-will-require-students-to-be-vaccinated-against-covid-19]

over 700 colleges and universities are mandating vaccinations for this fall 2021 semester. My institution is one of them. Aside from the recent University of Indiana Lawsuit, I am surprised that there has been little controversy about this. Is anyone here from an institution that requires a COVID jab or 'vaccine'? Will any of you be requesting an exemption on the basis of medical or religious grounds? I have been vaccinated but I am angry that this is being made a requirement, especially given the lack of proven effectiveness against the Delta variant. We still have to wear masks indoors too at our institution. What's the point then? Why not just continue teaching remotely until we have an FDA approved vaccine? This is BS!

[mleok]

The metric for success for the vaccine was never that they would prevent infection, only that they would prevent serious illness, hospitalization, and death. By that measure, the vaccines are still highly effective even against the Delta variant, and there is every scientific reason to require it of all faculty, staff, and students. Put another way, the vaccines still protect you against serious illness, although you may contract the disease and spread it, which is why masks are still required. None of these measures on their own are perfect, which is why both are required.

Having said that, there is something to be said about staying remote, especially for large classes, and I suspect that's what will end up happening.

[Anon1787]

The FDA is likely to give full approval soon. Apparently, not even a pandemic is enough to spur a risk-averse bureaucracy to move much faster. The same is also true of my university, which only belatedly decided to require students (and faculty) to be vaccinated and as a result the deadline to submit proof of full vaccination isn't until a month after the semester begins. I'm vaccinated and have no problem with institutions requiring vaccination (my university requires that students have the full range of vaccinations that students need for K-12 as well).

Against Delta, the vaccines still seem to be pretty good at preventing serious illness, but far less good at preventing spread (sterilizing immunity). Hence belt and suspenders (vaccines + masks). And it may be impossible to create a vaccine as effective the current vaccines were against the earlier variants (which may have raised our expectations too high). Sticking with online classes for an extended period is just not sustainable.

[arcturus]

The vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective. If you choose not to take advantage of the opportunity to reduce the effect of COVID-19 should you catch it, and to reduce your ability to transmit COVID-19, then the consequence of that choice is that you may not attend or work at many universities. It is unfortunate that it takes such requirements to get people to do the right thing. However, in the absence of common sense and logic, it appears to be falling into the purview of employers to require their employees to take steps in the direction of the common good. I have to say that if I was in a position of responsibility, I would want to make certain that I had taken all steps possible to prevent the spread of disease within the work place.

[downer]

I'm a bit confused by the OP's post. It looks at first like it is spurred by a dislike of people being forced to get the vaccine. But then it moves to arguing for staying online until there are truly effective vaccines that work better than the ones we have.

It's pretty obvious that the reason schools are not staying with online classes is because many of them are worried about their survival, and they cannot survive if classes are mostly online. Some will close soon anyway.

I won't be at all surprised if there's another bait and switch. Get students on campus and get the money in, but then move to online courses a few weeks into the semester, once the number of COVID cases spikes.

[Caracal]

I'm really annoyed by the talking point that the vaccines don't prevent infection and transmission. This is what happens when you get news cycles and social media that seize on one or two studies which probably have issues and ignore everything else. The vaccines do dramatically lessen the chances that someone will get covid and transmit it. I think people really don't understand how this compares to other viruses. If we just had tons of measles around, vaccinated people would get measles fairly frequently. There are two reasons we don't hear about that happening. The first is that if a person with measles coming into a classroom where everyone has been vaccinated, the virus isn't likely to find anywhere to go. Where without vaccination or prior infection, half the class might get infected, now most transmission is blocked. It's possible a few people might get infected anyway in the sense that if you tested them they might test positive for measles RNA. However those people are unlikely to by sympomatic, or if they are its probably very mild and they probably aren't capable of transmitting. You aren't going to get an outbreak in these sorts of circumstances. However, if only half the class was vaccinated, you could easily get an outbreak, and a few of those cases could be in vaccinated people, especially those who are immuno suppressed in some way.

[sinenomine]

My institution mandated vaccination for all in June and very few employees have asked for exemptions (I haven't seen any data for students). The mask mandate was lifted in July, but the grapevine tells me that it's being reinstated shortly. I taught fully online for the past three semesters and am scheduled to be back on-ground next month. So many undergrads failed online classes, so we're trying to get back into classrooms unless the virus prevents it. Time will tell.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I'm really annoyed by the talking point that the vaccines don't prevent infection and transmission. This is what happens when you get news cycles and social media that seize on one or two studies which probably have issues and ignore everything else. The vaccines do dramatically lessen the chances that someone will get covid and transmit it. I think people really don't understand how this compares to other viruses. If we just had tons of measles around, vaccinated people would get measles fairly frequently. There are two reasons we don't hear about that happening. The first is that if a person with measles coming into a classroom where everyone has been vaccinated, the virus isn't likely to find anywhere to go. Where without vaccination or prior infection, half the class might get infected, now most transmission is blocked. It's possible a few people might get infected anyway in the sense that if you tested them they might test positive for measles RNA. However those people are unlikely to by sympomatic, or if they are its probably very mild and they probably aren't capable of transmitting. You aren't going to get an outbreak in these sorts of circumstances. However, if only half the class was vaccinated, you could easily get an outbreak, and a few of those cases could be in vaccinated people, especially those who are immuno suppressed in some way.

Correct take. The press is doing a real disservice by hyping up breakthrough cases and amplifying outlier studies.

[the_geneticist]

My institution mandated vaccination for all in June and very few employees have asked for exemptions (I haven't seen any data for students). The mask mandate was lifted in July, but the grapevine tells me that it's being reinstated shortly. I taught fully online for the past three semesters and am scheduled to be back on-ground next month. So many undergrads failed online classes, so we're trying to get back into classrooms unless the virus prevents it. Time will tell.

My institution is similar to yours.  We are requiring the COVID-19 vaccine for all faculty, staff, students, vendors, etc.  The deadline to submit proof of vaccination, ask for an exemption, or show proof of having an appointment to get a vaccine is this week & classes start in just over a month. 

Our students HATE online classes, cheating was rampant, and failing rates were high (even with extremely lax policies like "no fault final exams").  They want to be back in the classrooms, living on campus, and having a somewhat normal college experience. 
I'm just hoping that enough folks will get the d@mn vaccine that we have very few outbreaks on campus.

FYI, the World Health Organization has a standard that a vaccine needs to be 70% effective to be considered for approval.  That can be either counted as a lower infection rate, a lower rate of severe cases, fewer deaths, or a combination of these.  No vaccine is 100% effective in preventing illness.  Saying "But people who are vaccinated can still get sick!  Why do we bother with vaccines?" is like saying "People who wear bike helmets can still get head trauma!  Why do we make our kids wear helmets?"

[mleok]

I'm really annoyed by the talking point that the vaccines don't prevent infection and transmission. This is what happens when you get news cycles and social media that seize on one or two studies which probably have issues and ignore everything else. The vaccines do dramatically lessen the chances that someone will get covid and transmit it. I think people really don't understand how this compares to other viruses. If we just had tons of measles around, vaccinated people would get measles fairly frequently. There are two reasons we don't hear about that happening. The first is that if a person with measles coming into a classroom where everyone has been vaccinated, the virus isn't likely to find anywhere to go. Where without vaccination or prior infection, half the class might get infected, now most transmission is blocked. It's possible a few people might get infected anyway in the sense that if you tested them they might test positive for measles RNA. However those people are unlikely to by sympomatic, or if they are its probably very mild and they probably aren't capable of transmitting. You aren't going to get an outbreak in these sorts of circumstances. However, if only half the class was vaccinated, you could easily get an outbreak, and a few of those cases could be in vaccinated people, especially those who are immuno suppressed in some way.

Well, one needs to be careful when discussing COVID-19, since it was already possible to transmit the virus even if asymptomatic, and with the Delta variant, the likelihood of being infected after being fully vaccinated has increased dramatically, because of the increased viral load in the upper respiratory track where a more intense immune response is harder to achieve. At some point, we have to come to terms with the reality that COVID-19 will likely become endemic (we're probably past the point of no return), and we need to get away from the metric of infection, and to the more relevant metric of serious illness, hospitalization, and death.

[mleok]

I'm really annoyed by the talking point that the vaccines don't prevent infection and transmission. This is what happens when you get news cycles and social media that seize on one or two studies which probably have issues and ignore everything else. The vaccines do dramatically lessen the chances that someone will get covid and transmit it. I think people really don't understand how this compares to other viruses. If we just had tons of measles around, vaccinated people would get measles fairly frequently. There are two reasons we don't hear about that happening. The first is that if a person with measles coming into a classroom where everyone has been vaccinated, the virus isn't likely to find anywhere to go. Where without vaccination or prior infection, half the class might get infected, now most transmission is blocked. It's possible a few people might get infected anyway in the sense that if you tested them they might test positive for measles RNA. However those people are unlikely to by sympomatic, or if they are its probably very mild and they probably aren't capable of transmitting. You aren't going to get an outbreak in these sorts of circumstances. However, if only half the class was vaccinated, you could easily get an outbreak, and a few of those cases could be in vaccinated people, especially those who are immuno suppressed in some way.

Correct take. The press is doing a real disservice by hyping up breakthrough cases and amplifying outlier studies.

The right way to combat this is to focus on metrics like hospitalization, and compare the likelihood of being hospitalized or dying from the disease when vaccinated vs. unvaccinated. On the briefing charts that my local country releases, it emphasizes that the not fully vaccinated have 9 times the case rate compared to the fully vaccinated, and the hospitalization rate is 51 times higher for the not fully vaccinated.

[mleok]

FYI, the World Health Organization has a standard that a vaccine needs to be 70% effective to be considered for approval.  That can be either counted as a lower infection rate, a lower rate of severe cases, fewer deaths, or a combination of these.  No vaccine is 100% effective in preventing illness.  Saying "But people who are vaccinated can still get sick!  Why do we bother with vaccines?" is like saying "People who wear bike helmets can still get head trauma!  Why do we make our kids wear helmets?"

And people can still die when wearing seatbelts, but that doesn't change the fact that they dramatically decrease the likelihood of fatal injury, and are legally mandated... as are bike helmets.

[niwon88]

I would not have taken this experimental jab prior to FDA approval if I wasn't required to by my workplace. In academia we are supposed to be critical thinkers and even the scientists have conveyed very conflicting information to the public. The science is merely emerging in this area since there are many unknowns, including the long-term effects. Remember back then when they said masks were 'not necessary'?

In the coming years what many of us believe to be factual about COVID 19 now will likely be invalidated by new science. I do not believe the science supports these measures we are currently taking. We have Israel as a test case for this because they conducted mass vaccinations early on and now fully vaccinated folks have been hospitalized with the Delta variant. What they are saying is that the MRNA is only 39% effective against the Delta (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html). Australia is another country in lockdown now.

The latest Lamda variant is supposedly resistant to all vaccines so we could be back at square one a year from now.

We will likely be locked down again in the fall vaccine or no vaccine because of the Delta variant. These so-called vaccine measures are a bit of theatre to placate a frightened public. Who knows what other variants are on the horizon? We can't keep taking vaccines hoping that one will work.

What the science currently supports is physical distancing and perhaps masks. The safest measure for colleges and universities would be to continue remote instruction but the economic imperative is being prioritized. Let's see how long our campuses will stay open in the fall.

[mleok]

I would not have taken this experimental jab prior to FDA approval if I wasn't required to by my workplace. In academia we are supposed to be critical thinkers and even the scientists have conveyed very conflicting information to the public. The science is merely emerging in this area since there are many unknowns, including the long-term effects. Remember back then when they said masks were 'not necessary'?

In the coming years what many of us believe to be factual about COVID 19 now will likely be invalidated by new science. I do not believe the science supports these measures we are currently taking. We have Israel as a test case for this because they conducted mass vaccinations early on and now fully vaccinated folks have been hospitalized with the Delta variant. What they are saying is that the MRNA is only 39% effective against the Delta (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html). Australia is another country in lockdown now.

The latest Lamda variant is supposedly resistant to all vaccines so we could be back at square one a year from now.

We will likely be locked down again in the fall vaccine or no vaccine because of the Delta variant. These so-called vaccine measures are a bit of theatre to placate a frightened public. Who knows what other variants are on the horizon? We can't keep taking vaccines hoping that one will work.

What the science currently supports is physical distancing and perhaps masks. The safest measure for colleges and universities would be to continue remote instruction but the economic imperative is being prioritized. Let's see how long our campuses will stay open in the fall.

Again, the metric of preventing infection was always an unrealistic one, and it still prevents severe illness. We cannot afford to wait until the science is settled, and we have to act on the best information we have. Yes, science in action is messy. But, anyone who thinks that any potential long-term effects of mRNA vaccines are possibly worse than actually contracting the virus is a fool who doesn't understand the science. As I said upthread, there is potentially a case to be made for staying remote, but there is absolutely no reason not to have a vaccine mandate and masking requirements if the decision is to have in-person instruction.

Actually, the idea that physical distancing (if you mean 6 ft apart) is helpful is based on wildly extrapolating from the evidence from TB transmission, which is not relevant to COVID. The science supports vaccination and masking as the most effective interventions when physical isolation (not distancing) is impossible.

[marshwiggle]

In the coming years what many of us believe to be factual about COVID 19 now will likely be invalidated by new science. I do not believe the science supports these measures we are currently taking. We have Israel as a test case for this because they conducted mass vaccinations early on and now fully vaccinated folks have been hospitalized with the Delta variant. What they are saying is that the MRNA is only 39% effective against the Delta (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html).

What the report says is:

Pfizer and BioNTech's Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, according to a new report from the country's Health Ministry.
The two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data.

88% effectiveness against hospitalization is pretty freakin' good.

Anywhere the data is being reported by vaccination status, the illness, hospitalization, and deaths are overwhelmingly among the unvaccinated. The more vaccinated a population is, the more stark the results are. (And that's where the delta variant dominates.)