Vaccine Mandates for faculty, staff, and students?

[niwon88]

Well, one needs to be careful when discussing COVID-19, since it was already possible to transmit the virus even if asymptomatic, and with the Delta variant, the likelihood of being infected after being fully vaccinated has increased dramatically, because of the increased viral load in the upper respiratory track where a more intense immune response is harder to achieve. At some point, we have to come to terms with the reality that COVID-19 will likely become endemic (we're probably past the point of no return), and we need to get away from the metric of infection, and to the more relevant metric of serious illness, hospitalization, and death.

Agreed. I think people here are being overly optimistic. This novel coronavirus is here to stay.

We need to consider the possible long-term effects of the MRNA vaccine which at this point are unknown. It is a FACT that this has created multiple times the severe adverse reactions than previous vaccines because those were well-tested with longitudinal studies. The publicly available data is here: https://vaers.hhs.gov/

We should all be very concerned about long-term health effects instead of focusing on the short-term and getting 'back to normal' which will never be.

[marshwiggle]

The latest Lamda variant is supposedly resistant to all vaccines so we could be back at square one a year from now.

We need to consider the possible long-term effects of the MRNA vaccine which at this point are unknown.

Pick one. By definition, new variants will always arise, and so "long term data" will be , (again, by definition), about older variants, and therefore invalid.

[Caracal]

I would not have taken this experimental jab prior to FDA approval if I wasn't required to by my workplace. In academia we are supposed to be critical thinkers and even the scientists have conveyed very conflicting information to the public. The science is merely emerging in this area since there are many unknowns, including the long-term effects. Remember back then when they said masks were 'not necessary'?

In the coming years what many of us believe to be factual about COVID 19 now will likely be invalidated by new science. I do not believe the science supports these measures we are currently taking. We have Israel as a test case for this because they conducted mass vaccinations early on and now fully vaccinated folks have been hospitalized with the Delta variant. What they are saying is that the MRNA is only 39% effective against the Delta (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html). Australia is another country in lockdown now.

The latest Lamda variant is supposedly resistant to all vaccines so we could be back at square one a year from now.

We will likely be locked down again in the fall vaccine or no vaccine because of the Delta variant. These so-called vaccine measures are a bit of theatre to placate a frightened public. Who knows what other variants are on the horizon? We can't keep taking vaccines hoping that one will work.

There's a lot of misinformation in here. You need to find better sources.

1. That Israeli number is based on data that aren't publicly available. Other studies, including one released last week, show that vaccines retain up to 85 percent effectiveness against delta. I've seen lots of experts who are somewhat skeptical of that data, but the bottom line is you can't just look at one study and draw huge conclusions, especially when it seems to contradict others.

2. Crucially that Isreali data still showed that the vaccines remain extremely effective at preventing hospitalization and death, something that hasn't been contradicted by a single study. Of course some vaccinated people have been hospitalized and died, but the rates are much higher for unvaccinated people. I don't know about you, but that's the important part for me.

3. Your information about Lambda is inaccurate. There are lots of variants out there. A few have turned out to be important. The vast majority haven't. Crucially, none have managed to be "resistant to all vaccines." From my understanding, it's pretty unlikely any will be, especially against severe disease. Lambda is something they are keeping an eye on but there's no good evidence for the wild claims you are making. In fact, most of this fear about Lambda seems to be based on a single study where the authors make some not particularly well supported claims.

Again, you really need to find ways to get better information.

4. I can't predict the future but this idea that "lockdowns" are coming seems to be a wing nut talking point. We really haven't had lockdowns in this country since the first wave. I doubt that is going to happen. It also isn't something that needs to happen anymore, because vaccines are an extremely effective tool to mitigate the worst effects of the virus.

[Stockmann]

@niwon88: To me it seems the empirical evidence is now very clear both on vaccine efficacy and safety. Enough developed democracies have vaccinated on a sufficiently massive scale that if the vaccines were ineffective or dangerous it could simply not be kept secret. It was this what convinced me personally of the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, rather than any individual agency's seal of approval. Covid really is becoming  a pandemic of the unvaccinated - in the US only something like 1 out of every 200 Covid deaths are among the vaccinated, and it's in places in the US (states, counties) where a lack of mask mandates, etc meet low vaccination rates that things are dire (lots of deaths and hospitalizations). I too have a pretty low opinion of the WHO, which indeed advised against masks, but it's approval is not the reason why I trust the vaccines.
It's true Israel is facing yet another major wave in terms of cases, but the deaths so far are still low compared to the previous wave. Australia's vaccination drive was among the worst in the developed world (and much worse than those of Serbia or Chile, for example), so it's not really strange that they're in lockdown.
Some of the mRNA vaccines (Pfizer, iirc) are already being updated using new variants. Also, according to the Russians, Sputnik V remains highly effective against Delta. Personally, my prediction is that this is going to lead to annual booster shots, updated with the latest variants - that Covid is endemic and will remain so, but mostly manageable. There also seems to be progress with treatments, with an Israeli drug that is claimed to be pretty effective at protecting the lungs. Treatments could end up in an AIDS-like situation - no silver bullet cure, but a vast improvement on not having treatments, which is more or less the present situation with Covid.

[Caracal]

Well, one needs to be careful when discussing COVID-19, since it was already possible to transmit the virus even if asymptomatic, and with the Delta variant, the likelihood of being infected after being fully vaccinated has increased dramatically, because of the increased viral load in the upper respiratory track where a more intense immune response is harder to achieve. At some point, we have to come to terms with the reality that COVID-19 will likely become endemic (we're probably past the point of no return), and we need to get away from the metric of infection, and to the more relevant metric of serious illness, hospitalization, and death.

Agreed. I think people here are being overly optimistic. This novel coronavirus is here to stay.

We need to consider the possible long-term effects of the MRNA vaccine which at this point are unknown. It is a FACT that this has created multiple times the severe adverse reactions than previous vaccines because those were well-tested with longitudinal studies. The publicly available data is here: https://vaers.hhs.gov/

We should all be very concerned about long-term health effects instead of focusing on the short-term and getting 'back to normal' which will never be.

Oh, and you aren't really understanding what it means for something to become endemic. It doesn't mean that Covid is going to continue to be as disruptive or deadly as it has been. Within a fairly short period of time, everyone will have been exposed to Covid, either through vaccination or infection. As that happens the virus will become less deadly, even if it keeps circulating, and eventually will not be a big deal to most people. Fortunately for you, your body has encountered it first through vaccination, rather than infection.

There has really never been any vaccine that has had long term health effects that haven't shown up within a few weeks of injection. There isn't really a mechanism for that to happen.

[mleok]

Well, one needs to be careful when discussing COVID-19, since it was already possible to transmit the virus even if asymptomatic, and with the Delta variant, the likelihood of being infected after being fully vaccinated has increased dramatically, because of the increased viral load in the upper respiratory track where a more intense immune response is harder to achieve. At some point, we have to come to terms with the reality that COVID-19 will likely become endemic (we're probably past the point of no return), and we need to get away from the metric of infection, and to the more relevant metric of serious illness, hospitalization, and death.

Agreed. I think people here are being overly optimistic. This novel coronavirus is here to stay.

We need to consider the possible long-term effects of the MRNA vaccine which at this point are unknown. It is a FACT that this has created multiple times the severe adverse reactions than previous vaccines because those were well-tested with longitudinal studies. The publicly available data is here: https://vaers.hhs.gov/

We should all be very concerned about long-term health effects instead of focusing on the short-term and getting 'back to normal' which will never be.

Why don't you just admit that you're a vaccine skeptic that wouldn't have gotten the vaccine were it not for your employer mandate, which is precisely why such mandates should be far more widespread, because they work. Again, any possible long term risks of mRNA vaccines pale in comparison to the long term effects of actually contracting the virus. Let's also be honest that if we had the long term studies, you'll find some other reason to avoid taking the vaccine if it's not mandated. The reality is that the vaccines have undergone far more scrutiny than just about any other fully FDA approved vaccine. Quit making up excuses and acting like you're persuadable absent a mandate.

[Anon1787]

The OP wants to impose their high level of risk aversion on everyone else because they're afraid of possible harmful long-term effects of the vaccine's new technology (or even vaccines in general) and of Covid itself. Studying the full long-term effects of the vaccine will take years (by which time natural herd immunity would likely occur). Perhaps the OP should instead find another job that fits their preferences.

[mleok]

The OP wants to impose their high level of risk aversion on everyone else because they're afraid of possible harmful long-term effects of the vaccine's new technology (or even vaccines in general) and of Covid itself. Studying the full long-term effects of the vaccine will take years (by which time natural herd immunity would likely occur). Perhaps the OP should instead find another job that fits their preferences.

Staying remote until that happens will also mean that more than half of colleges in the United States would close, so it would probably be a good idea to find another job if that's what they're suggesting.

[downer]

It would be interesting to see what colleges would choose to do if they were rich and were not worried about their reputation.

[Caracal]

It would be interesting to see what colleges would choose to do if they were rich and were not worried about their reputation.

I find this perplexing. I guess some people think the whole students being on campus and learning in person is just some sort of bug, but really it is the purpose of colleges and universities. If that isn't happening, what the hell is the point? Sorry if I seem a little grumpy, but I very badly want to go back to in person teaching and it seems pretty clear that vaccinating everyone on campuses is the way to do that as safely as possible. I'm not sure I see what the alternative is? Perpetual online instruction until we are sure there's nothing to worry about with covid anymore?

[Aster]

It would be interesting to see what colleges would choose to do if they were rich and were not worried about their reputation.

I find this perplexing. I guess some people think the whole students being on campus and learning in person is just some sort of bug, but really it is the purpose of colleges and universities. If that isn't happening, what the hell is the point? Sorry if I seem a little grumpy, but I very badly want to go back to in person teaching and it seems pretty clear that vaccinating everyone on campuses is the way to do that as safely as possible. I'm not sure I see what the alternative is? Perpetual online instruction until we are sure there's nothing to worry about with covid anymore?

+1

[downer]

It would be interesting to see what colleges would choose to do if they were rich and were not worried about their reputation.

I find this perplexing. I guess some people think the whole students being on campus and learning in person is just some sort of bug, but really it is the purpose of colleges and universities. If that isn't happening, what the hell is the point? Sorry if I seem a little grumpy, but I very badly want to go back to in person teaching and it seems pretty clear that vaccinating everyone on campuses is the way to do that as safely as possible. I'm not sure I see what the alternative is? Perpetual online instruction until we are sure there's nothing to worry about with covid anymore?

Perpetual online? No. But given the risks of bringing people on campus, wearing masks, there's a case for staying online.

Online education was already reconfiguring education, and the longer we live with pandemic, the more that will happen. 

[quasihumanist]

Online education was already reconfiguring education, and the longer we live with pandemic, the more that will happen.

Our courses when we went remote were pretty dubious, though some of them had been a bit dubious beforehand.  They're still a lot less dubious than some providers, but still dubious.

I'm fond of saying that the state space of higher education institutions has only two stable equilibria, ELITE and DIPLOMAMILL.  The pandemic accelerated the dynamics quite a bit and pushed most institutions towards DIPLOMAMILL faster than they had been moving before.

[niwon88]

Why don't you just admit that you're a vaccine skeptic that wouldn't have gotten the vaccine were it not for your employer mandate, which is precisely why such mandates should be far more widespread, because they work. Again, any possible long term risks of mRNA vaccines pale in comparison to the long term effects of actually contracting the virus. Let's also be honest that if we had the long term studies, you'll find some other reason to avoid taking the vaccine if it's not mandated. The reality is that the vaccines have undergone far more scrutiny than just about any other fully FDA approved vaccine. Quit making up excuses and acting like you're persuadable absent a mandate.

I stated in one post that I would never have gotten the mRNA jab if I wasn't being compelled to by my employer. I have colleagues who say they will sue if fired but I'm not willing to go that far. I think it is perfectly reasonable to be hesitant about taking the existing mRNA injections. We are all part of a clinical trial since it has been authorized only for emergency use.

I am part of my institutional governing body and trust me, they are already making plans to quickly switch to remote instruction due to Delta variants and likely dozens of other institutions in my state will follow suit. Things are not looking good for this fall and vaccine mandates will do nothing to change the grim outlook.

[mleok]

Why don't you just admit that you're a vaccine skeptic that wouldn't have gotten the vaccine were it not for your employer mandate, which is precisely why such mandates should be far more widespread, because they work. Again, any possible long term risks of mRNA vaccines pale in comparison to the long term effects of actually contracting the virus. Let's also be honest that if we had the long term studies, you'll find some other reason to avoid taking the vaccine if it's not mandated. The reality is that the vaccines have undergone far more scrutiny than just about any other fully FDA approved vaccine. Quit making up excuses and acting like you're persuadable absent a mandate.

I stated in one post that I would never have gotten the mRNA jab if I wasn't being compelled to by my employer. I have colleagues who say they will sue if fired but I'm not willing to go that far. I think it is perfectly reasonable to be hesitant about taking the existing mRNA injections. We are all part of a clinical trial since it has been authorized only for emergency use.

I am part of my institutional governing body and trust me, they are already making plans to quickly switch to remote instruction due to Delta variants and likely dozens of other institutions in my state will follow suit. Things are not looking good for this fall and vaccine mandates will do nothing to change the grim outlook.

Well, the most recently appointed supreme court justice has signaled that such lawsuits might not have a favorable reception even with the current deeply conservative slate of justices. Vaccine mandates have long been upheld to be legal, deal with it. Guess what, the clinical trial aspect doesn't really end even after full FDA approval, that's a bit of a red herring. That's why there are drug recalls even after full FDA approval. Again, the vaccines have already received far more scrutiny than any other fully FDA approved drug thus far.