Vaccine Mandates for faculty, staff, and students?

[Caracal]

Apparently the removal would have required police intervention, and they refused, as I understood it.

It's worth asking the instructor who told me, to confirm; I'll find out.

M.

Ugh, I wouldn't want to call campus security if a student just refused to wear a mask in class (it is required). I think I would ask them to leave and if they refused I would just apologize to everyone, end class and go call the dean of students.

I guess that's more complicated when its not just one class but a week long event where people have paid and made arrangements...

[Hibush]

Apparently the removal would have required police intervention, and they refused, as I understood it.

It's worth asking the instructor who told me, to confirm; I'll find out.

M.

Ugh, I wouldn't want to call campus security if a student just refused to wear a mask in class (it is required). I think I would ask them to leave and if they refused I would just apologize to everyone, end class and go call the dean of students.

I guess that's more complicated when its not just one class but a week long event where people have paid and made arrangements...

It is important to have clear guidance for all instructors on the levels of escalation. Calling security needs to be one of those levels. If all else fails and the protocol calls for that action, you really have to do it. Otherwise you undermine the legitimacy of the whole enforcement approach, as marshwiggle and caracal noted upthread.

If the administration does not provide clear guidance to instructors, they really are not doing their job. They need to be told that (in writing).

[Caracal]

Apparently the removal would have required police intervention, and they refused, as I understood it.

It's worth asking the instructor who told me, to confirm; I'll find out.

M.

Ugh, I wouldn't want to call campus security if a student just refused to wear a mask in class (it is required). I think I would ask them to leave and if they refused I would just apologize to everyone, end class and go call the dean of students.

I guess that's more complicated when its not just one class but a week long event where people have paid and made arrangements...

It is important to have clear guidance for all instructors on the levels of escalation. Calling security needs to be one of those levels. If all else fails and the protocol calls for that action, you really have to do it. Otherwise you undermine the legitimacy of the whole enforcement approach, as marshwiggle and caracal noted upthread.

If the administration does not provide clear guidance to instructors, they really are not doing their job. They need to be told that (in writing).

As a general rule, I would not call security into my classroom unless I thought a student might physically harm someone. I don't want anyone being dragged out of the classroom and since it is my class, I'm not going to call security for conduct issues.

I don't think that would undermine the legitimacy of enforcement. I'm certainly not allowing the student to attend class again if they aren't going to wear a mask. I just want it to be handled by the dean of student's office, out of my classroom. There are practical reasons for this too. If I ask a student to leave, they refuse, and then campus safety has to be called, its hard to imagine we are really going to have a productive class. The whole thing is likely to take a significant amount of time, and nobody is going to be in a good frame of mind afterwards.

If the situation wasn't resolved by the next class, and I was worried the student might again try to attend and not follow the rules, I probably would see if a campus safety officer could go stand at the door and make sure the student didn't show up, but that's a far more controlled situation.

[mamselle]

I haven't heard back from the instructor, but the camp staff didn't have a 'heavy security department;'  my friend the instructor did say, "No one came prepared to have to be a real 'bouncer.'

Since they relied on the maturity and good-will of the attendees, most of whom have known each other for years, and cherish their connections, I can see how they might be short-sighted enough to omit that layer of oversight, but it's still upsetting that it had to come to that.

The suing might well be done by the non-profits that hired the camp, but as I understood it, the decision to close was made in consultation with all involved parties, so that won't be likely.

Individuals who felt cheated might sue, but again, the community connections might mitigate that, so one just waits to see.

M.

[marshwiggle]

I haven't heard back from the instructor, but the camp staff didn't have a 'heavy security department;'  my friend the instructor did say, "No one came prepared to have to be a real 'bouncer.'

Since they relied on the maturity and good-will of the attendees, most of whom have known each other for years, and cherish their connections, I can see how they might be short-sighted enough to omit that layer of oversight, but it's still upsetting that it had to come to that.

The suing might well be done by the non-profits that hired the camp, but as I understood it, the decision to close was made in consultation with all involved parties, so that won't be likely.

Individuals who felt cheated might sue, but again, the community connections might mitigate that, so one just waits to see.

M.

Doesn't seem like these three attendees cherished their "community connections".

Three people refused to wear masks or be tested after their arrival. They communicated the virus to others, and the whole camp had to shut down.

Did they even apologize?

[mamselle]

I don't know. I only heard about it the next week, after the online folk dance class in which one of the teachers was a participant.

I doubt it, though. Refusals like that tend to be self-righteous, not reconsidered with any humility later....

M.

[niwon88]

Probably wise to disengage from this thread. But, if my tone is too harsh, its because this makes me really angry. It makes me angrier because you are vaccinated. You are largely protected from the consequences of this kind of garbage rhetoric. You got a vaccine, but are happy to sit around and repeat BS talking points that the vaccines don't do anything, that they don't largely prevent hospitalization and death.
Are you repeating this kind of crap to unvaccinated family and friends? You might get them killed. You should be fine though, so you can keep spouting garbage about how the dark times are ahead, but there's nothing anyone can do.

There are words for people like that, but most of them are inappropriate on here and fall afoul of the standards on abuse.

I was never anti-vax, but the COVID-19 mandates and absurd related policies have made me very angry and I fully support those who refuse to take it. I last took an MMR about 10 years ago to enter my PhD program and I didn't have an issue taking that vaccine. Since I have invested a lot in my career I am not willing to be fired over this at this point, but I'm sure if annual boosters become mandated I might re-think my career choice. The vitriol directed at those who refuse to wear masks or comply with quarantine orders should be disturbing to all of us.

I am not planning to get into any classroom conflicts over students who refuse to wear masks. I will just inform them of the policy and report them to the admin. Unless we have a serious medical issue, we're not allowed to teach online so we will have in-person classes. I am not sure what a religious exemption means either. I'd be interested in finding out more about that.

My original post asked if any faculty members were planning to resist and if so, how. I'm really interested in those who have not drunk the collective kool-aid about the efficacy of this particular vaccine. In online conversations with my colleagues, I know that many are indeed skeptical but fear the backlash from the pro-vaccine folks who are hostile to dissenting opinions.

[Puget]

Probably wise to disengage from this thread. But, if my tone is too harsh, its because this makes me really angry. It makes me angrier because you are vaccinated. You are largely protected from the consequences of this kind of garbage rhetoric. You got a vaccine, but are happy to sit around and repeat BS talking points that the vaccines don't do anything, that they don't largely prevent hospitalization and death.
Are you repeating this kind of crap to unvaccinated family and friends? You might get them killed. You should be fine though, so you can keep spouting garbage about how the dark times are ahead, but there's nothing anyone can do.

There are words for people like that, but most of them are inappropriate on here and fall afoul of the standards on abuse.

I was never anti-vax, but the COVID-19 mandates and absurd related policies have made me very angry and I fully support those who refuse to take it. I last took an MMR about 10 years ago to enter my PhD program and I didn't have an issue taking that vaccine. Since I have invested a lot in my career I am not willing to be fired over this at this point, but I'm sure if annual boosters become mandated I might re-think my career choice. The vitriol directed at those who refuse to wear masks or comply with quarantine orders should be disturbing to all of us.

I am not planning to get into any classroom conflicts over students who refuse to wear masks. I will just inform them of the policy and report them to the admin. Unless we have a serious medical issue, we're not allowed to teach online so we will have in-person classes. I am not sure what a religious exemption means either. I'd be interested in finding out more about that.

My original post asked if any faculty members were planning to resist and if so, how. I'm really interested in those who have not drunk the collective kool-aid about the efficacy of this particular vaccine. In online conversations with my colleagues, I know that many are indeed skeptical but fear the backlash from the pro-vaccine folks who are hostile to dissenting opinions.

It's you who have drunk the kool-aid. The data on efficacy are unequivocal, and as a supposed academic you should have the intellect to evaluate them for yourself and come to the same conclusion. Stop trying to spread misinformation here. Even our resident conservatives aren't going to agree with you.

[dismalist]

I've said some of this elsewhere on the board, but the Covid problems crop up on many threads, understandably.

The existence of the vaccines turn the public health problem into a private health problem. Take a vaccine unless you like to gamble.

The latest strain -- there will be more -- changes nothing! The extant vaccines protect against severe illness, ICU incarceration, and death. That probability is tiny, but will never go to zero. Get used to it.

The efficacy of masks is largely uncertain -- wide variability of different types of estimates, but the mean is not zero! The cost of wearing a non-surgical mask is low for almost everybody. So a mask mandate is not idiotic. I wear one.

The situation is adjudicated as in Jacobsen vs. Massachusetts [1905] https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/197/11/, which says that States and localities can indeed enforce vaccination, though the courts cannot. Some States have wisely delegated the determination of  any requirement to private or public institutions. That includes Virginia, where I live. So UVa and VaTech, eg, require vaccination. My self-service gas station, where I come into contact with nobody, doesn't. Other States have decreed that no institution may so decree, such as Florida. That is moronic. Still other localities have decreed that all must be vaccinated to go to a bar. New York City is an example. This is equally moronic.

The point is that there is ample room in extant law for everybody to find, work, or buy and sell in institutions more or less compatible with their own preferred personal level of risk.

To make this work one may have to shop elsewhere, work elsewhere, and play elsewhere.

No one has a right to have his or her preferred level of risk ordained for everyone else.

[marshwiggle]

It's you who have drunk the kool-aid. The data on efficacy are unequivocal, and as a supposed academic you should have the intellect to evaluate them for yourself and come to the same conclusion. Stop trying to spread misinformation here. Even our resident conservatives aren't going to agree with you.

Indeed. In Ontario, they've started reporting covid stats by vaccination status.
Yesterday, there were about 600 new cases of covid, of whom about 500 were of unvaccinated people. About 100 cases were among fully vaccinated people. Here about 75% of people are fully vaccinated, so it's really simple arithmetic to see that the vaccinations make a huge difference. (And hospitalizations show similar trends in that it's much less likely for fully vaccinated people.)

The evidence for the efficacy of vaccines is overwhelming.

[Bbmaj7b5]

I was never anti-vax, but the COVID-19 mandates and absurd related policies have made me very angry and I fully support those who refuse to take it. I last took an MMR about 10 years ago to enter my PhD program and I didn't have an issue taking that vaccine. Since I have invested a lot in my career I am not willing to be fired over this at this point, but I'm sure if annual boosters become mandated I might re-think my career choice. The vitriol directed at those who refuse to wear masks or comply with quarantine orders should be disturbing to all of us.

If anything, the vitriol should be amplified. And, yes, this does make you anti-vax.

I live in one of those states whose governor appears to be actively looking to kill us, even threatening to confiscate the liquor licenses of private establishments who impose mask mandates. This county already has virtually no ICU beds available anymore, and the majority of our students come from regions of the state with 20% - 30% full vaccination rates - and they are moving in this weekend.

So, no - in my opinion, not enough scorn is poured on those who refuse to do what makes the most vulnerable of us safe, and those who defend that point of view could use their own ration of sh!t.

[Caracal]

I was never anti-vax, but the COVID-19 mandates and absurd related policies have made me very angry and I fully support those who refuse to take it. I last took an MMR about 10 years ago to enter my PhD program and I didn't have an issue taking that vaccine. Since I have invested a lot in my career I am not willing to be fired over this at this point, but I'm sure if annual boosters become mandated I might re-think my career choice. The vitriol directed at those who refuse to wear masks or comply with quarantine orders should be disturbing to all of us.

If anything, the vitriol should be amplified. And, yes, this does make you anti-vax.

I live in one of those states whose governor appears to be actively looking to kill us, even threatening to confiscate the liquor licenses of private establishments who impose mask mandates. This county already has virtually no ICU beds available anymore, and the majority of our students come from regions of the state with 20% - 30% full vaccination rates - and they are moving in this weekend.

So, no - in my opinion, not enough scorn is poured on those who refuse to do what makes the most vulnerable of us safe, and those who defend that point of view could use their own ration of sh!t.

I don't think anger and vitriol work very well. Yelling at people doesn't make them do things. Vaccine mandates for jobs or attending schools are a different matter. As the appeals court ruled in that Indiana case, nobody is making anybody attend college. If someone really doesn't want to be vaccinated, they are free to unenroll from classes. Bbmaj was free to quit his job. If a student doesn't want to take classes that teach evolution, they are free to attend a school where they can avoid a science requirement where they will have to take a biology class. Similarly, if wearing a mask is unacceptable to you, you can not go into stores and other indoor spaces where they are required.

I suspect Bbmaj would have less sympathy if I was morally opposed to clothes and was asserting my right to wander through town naked. My beliefs might be sincere, and even reasonable, but I'm not going to get far arguing that governments can't mandate I wear clothes in public. 

[mamselle]

Even just one item of clothing...like a mask?

(Images of Lady Godiva with 15 different damask face coverings, all bejeweled and bedecked with pearls come to mind...)

M.

[mleok]

Probably wise to disengage from this thread. But, if my tone is too harsh, its because this makes me really angry. It makes me angrier because you are vaccinated. You are largely protected from the consequences of this kind of garbage rhetoric. You got a vaccine, but are happy to sit around and repeat BS talking points that the vaccines don't do anything, that they don't largely prevent hospitalization and death.
Are you repeating this kind of crap to unvaccinated family and friends? You might get them killed. You should be fine though, so you can keep spouting garbage about how the dark times are ahead, but there's nothing anyone can do.

There are words for people like that, but most of them are inappropriate on here and fall afoul of the standards on abuse.

I was never anti-vax, but the COVID-19 mandates and absurd related policies have made me very angry and I fully support those who refuse to take it. I last took an MMR about 10 years ago to enter my PhD program and I didn't have an issue taking that vaccine. Since I have invested a lot in my career I am not willing to be fired over this at this point, but I'm sure if annual boosters become mandated I might re-think my career choice. The vitriol directed at those who refuse to wear masks or comply with quarantine orders should be disturbing to all of us.

I am not planning to get into any classroom conflicts over students who refuse to wear masks. I will just inform them of the policy and report them to the admin. Unless we have a serious medical issue, we're not allowed to teach online so we will have in-person classes. I am not sure what a religious exemption means either. I'd be interested in finding out more about that.

My original post asked if any faculty members were planning to resist and if so, how. I'm really interested in those who have not drunk the collective kool-aid about the efficacy of this particular vaccine. In online conversations with my colleagues, I know that many are indeed skeptical but fear the backlash from the pro-vaccine folks who are hostile to dissenting opinions.

I sure hope you're not in STEM, because you lack a basic appreciation of the scientific method and statistics. I am hostile to stupidity, particularly when it negatively affect my wellbeing and that of my family.

[mleok]

For me, the take home message from this thread is that reasoning with vaccine skeptics don't work as well as vaccine mandates.