Election 2021! (Canada votes again...)

[Kron3007]

I've been finding this thread really interesting! I moved to Canada in 2014, and even though I pay a lot of attention to politics and government, I feel like I get a lot of it. But there are subtleties I have never understood.

If you don't mind my adding a question, back when Conservatives still has "Progressive" in their name, what did "progressive" mean? I lived in Toronto during Mike Harris's government (I've moved back and forth between Canada and the United States a few times -- it was only in 2014 that we came to stay), and he was a Progressive Conservative (admittedly at the provincial level). But he must have understood that word differently than I do.

The Conservative Party is the original party, and it was always split between the red- and blue-Tory wings, with the reds being more British-style (communitarian economic protectionists) and the blues being more American-style (socially conservative free-market types). In the early forties, some disaffected Tories published a declaration calling for free markets and conscription, but also full employment, subsidized housing, and medicare. They were also pro-union. They had some clout, and the subsequent party convention elected some guy who wasn't even a member to be the party leader, and he changed the name to the 'Progressive' Conservatives to mark their influence.

In terms of actual policy, though, I don't remember what their schtick was, apart from being pro-bilingualism (the old Conservative Party was assimilationist). By the '90s they'd embraced what we now call neo-liberalism, but they might have been more libertarian on the social front--I don't recall.

The Reform Party (/Canadian Alliance) was always basically just a prairie grievance ("Western alienation") party, and their grievances included atheists, French, gays, and universal healthcare.

Good summary.  However, I do remember the reform party having a pretty big presence in Ontario, a
Or at least where I lived.

[marshwiggle]

The Reform Party (/Canadian Alliance) was always basically just a prairie grievance ("Western alienation") party, and their grievances included atheists, French, gays, and universal healthcare.

Good summary.  However, I do remember the reform party having a pretty big presence in Ontario, a
Or at least where I lived.

And the Bloc Quebecois is a regional (i.e. Quebec) grievance party. The NDP also has certain regional strongholds, like northern Ontario.

Regional grievances are a staple of Canadian politics. One of the big arguments for some kind of proportional representation is that it wouldn't give as many seats to parties trading in these regional grievances as FPTP does. In principle, parties that have to have broad national support are better for the country.

[secundem_artem]

The biggest thing holding Canada together is a universal loathing of Toronto.  Even the rest of Ontario reserves a special hate for Hogtown.

[Parasaurolophus]

I mean, sovereignty is at least a real grievance. "Western" "alienation" is bullshit pretty much the whole way through, right up to the name.

[marshwiggle]

I mean, sovereignty is at least a real grievance. "Western" "alienation" is bullshit pretty much the whole way through, right up to the name.

I grew up as an anglo in Quebec. Sovereignty is a lot of BS as well. Support for it has dropped off over the decades as the hippies from the 60's die off. The younger generations don't have the same sense of "oppression" by the English overlords. And the allophones, i.e. immigrants, even if they have adopted French, just don't have a dog in this fight.

[mamselle]

Weren't many of the allophones French-speaking Haitians, Congolese, Nigerians, etc.?

They might have very mixed feelings about any allegiance with French culture given their own colonial experiences as well.

M.

[Parasaurolophus]

I mean, sovereignty is at least a real grievance. "Western" "alienation" is bullshit pretty much the whole way through, right up to the name.

I grew up as an anglo in Quebec. Sovereignty is a lot of BS as well. Support for it has dropped off over the decades as the hippies from the 60's die off. The younger generations don't have the same sense of "oppression" by the English overlords. And the allophones, i.e. immigrants, even if they have adopted French, just don't have a dog in this fight.

Sure, but it's a real issue. "Western" "alienation" is about the national energy board, which lasted all of 1980-1985, and equalization payments, which they consistently describe (or maybe it's 'fundamentally misundersand'). There's not really anything more to it than that. Whereas sovereignty is at least still part of the policy agenda for all but one of Québec's political parties.

I agree that sovereignty is stupid, but it's much less stupid than "Western" "alienation", which isn't even a thing (apart from Alberta being pissed off that it isn't Ottawa, anyway, and a general feeling that "Westerners" hated their French classes in elementary and high school). It's a substantial, if fundamentally flawed, issue. The other just isn't.

[Parasaurolophus]

Weren't many of the allophones French-speaking Haitians, Congolese, Nigerians, etc.?

They might have very mixed feelings about any allegiance with French culture given their own colonial experiences as well.

M.

IIRC if they have French (or English) as a mother tongue, they aren't allophones (despite being immigrants). At least, I'm pretty sure that's how I learned it.

[mamselle]

Right, going by the Latin "alter-" as the root source for "allo," which I should have realized.

I guess I was using it as I thought it was being used, to indicate those not from Canada.

Thanks.

M.

[kaysixteen]

Random points and questions:

1)'allo-' is a Greek word, for 'other'.   

2) WRT Canadian political parties, how exactly does one become a member of one?   Does one simply 'register' to vote as one, as is normal in the US (in most states), or does one have to apply for membership and pay dues, as in the UK?   Also, what percentage of Canadians identify with a party, vs. are independents?

3) I recall reading a news story about the failed 1995 Quebec independence referendum, which seemed to say that the faction that put the 'non' vote over the top, by virtue of its over 95% non vote, was Quebeck 1st Nations people, most of whom apparently do not speak French, and were overwhelmingly in support of remaining in Canada, to the extent of threatening to secede large parts of Northern Quebec from a newly independent Quebec, in order to stay in Canada?

[Kron3007]

I mean, sovereignty is at least a real grievance. "Western" "alienation" is bullshit pretty much the whole way through, right up to the name.

I guess, but I think it runs deeper than just energy and French class.  I think it also has to do with the fact that the election is decided in Quebec and Ontario for the most part.  Of course, this is part of democracy, but I remember elections that were decided before the polls were even closed in BC.  It would feel pretty crappy to know the outcome of the election before you even cast your vote

These feelings are not unique to the west though.  Even within Ontario, most ridings are in the GTA.  If you look at the map, most of Ontario (geographically) is blue and orange, but it is red in number of ridings.

The reason this matters and can be alienating is that parties focus on the vote rich regions that have a chance of flipping and ignore the others.  I am in Ontario, but in a rural, solid blue, riding.  This type of riding is not even a thought during the election etc.  For Alberta, this represents most of the province.

[marshwiggle]

Random points and questions:

1)'allo-' is a Greek word, for 'other'.   

2) WRT Canadian political parties, how exactly does one become a member of one?   Does one simply 'register' to vote as one, as is normal in the US (in most states), or does one have to apply for membership and pay dues, as in the UK?   Also, what percentage of Canadians identify with a party, vs. are independents?

It's more like the UK. As far as what percentage of voters belong to a party, it would be tiny. We don't have primaries like in the US, so the only people who would belong to a party would be people who are very political and partisan.

3) I recall reading a news story about the failed 1995 Quebec independence referendum, which seemed to say that the faction that put the 'non' vote over the top, by virtue of its over 95% non vote, was Quebeck 1st Nations people, most of whom apparently do not speak French, and were overwhelmingly in support of remaining in Canada, to the extent of threatening to secede large parts of Northern Quebec from a newly independent Quebec, in order to stay in Canada?

Sovereignty in Quebec is not just about language; it's also about the superiority of "pur laine" (pure wool) identity which means your Francophone ancestors had to be here for *generations. Immigrants from French-speaking countries don't count. And neither do indigenous people.

(Since before the battle on the Plains of Abraham, when the English defeated the French. Car license plates in Quebec say "Je me souviens" (I remember). What they remember is the defeat on the Plains of Abraham. In 1759.)

[Parasaurolophus]

Anamie Paul announced her resignation today. So, short of May coming back in, the Greens will basically sit the next election out (too).

[kaysixteen]

Is there any significant level of popular support in Canada for the development of political primary elections there, or are Canadians more or less willing to let party honchos keep choosing who will be candidates for office, and esp candidates for the prime ministership?

[Parasaurolophus]

Party leaders are voted in by the party membership, so that's how prime ministers are selected.

As for candidates... it's very complicated. Most nominees actually win a nomination contest, but some are appointed for various reasons, and each party has its own rules for the nomination process, what kinds of protections exist for incumbents, etc. Although leaders generally have the final veto.

In other words, we have primaries but don't call them that.