Advising someone about PhD program

[jerseyjay]

Yes, I agree that there are a very small handful of schools that I would advise a student to do a PhD in history with the goal of getting a faculty position. There are some good schools whose history programs are below (or above) the general cachet of the degree; I assume this is true for most fields.

I don't really think anybody who is not familiar with academia can really appreciate the strange nature of the "industry." To some degree, this is because of the peculiar nature of academia. Some of it is the rather degraded state of higher education in the United States today (the rise of part-time jobs, stagnant salaries, fewer positions).

I generally have advised any of my students who asked about a PhD program in history to find something else to do. Partly this is a reflection of the quality of our history program at the undergraduate level, and partly this is a reflection of the history job market overall.

[Hibush]

It really sounds like forumites are giving informed, nuanced and level-headed advice to the people who look to them for guidance.

[Wahoo Redux]

It really sounds like forumites are giving informed, nuanced and level-headed advice to the people who look to them for guidance.

Thanks, but it does not do much good.

[Durchlässigkeitsbeiwert]

Somehow related:
Ten simple rules for choosing a PhD supervisor
(published in PLOS Computational Biology, but the advice given looks quite universal).

Particularly relevant to this topic:
Rule 7: But also try to meet past students
... Past students give you information on career outcomes (i.e., what are they doing now?) and can provide insight into what the lab was like when they were in it...

[Harlow2]

 We are an R-2.  Our new hires in social sciences and education come from their highly ranked Ph.D. Programs already having published in good-to-high level journals. The competition to get the positions is fierce.

If conducting research is the goal, echo the advice to wait until they can attend a more highly ranked program.

[Kron3007]

Somehow related:
Ten simple rules for choosing a PhD supervisor
(published in PLOS Computational Biology, but the advice given looks quite universal).

Particularly relevant to this topic:
Rule 7: But also try to meet past students
... Past students give you information on career outcomes (i.e., what are they doing now?) and can provide insight into what the lab was like when they were in it...

I usually recommend potential grad students contact my current/recent students to ask about the program, university, and my lab.  This should be standard practice as students should know what they are getting themselves into, for better or worse.  If a potential advisor is hesitant, that would be a big red flag IMO.

[spork]

[. . . ]

Is there anything else you would recommend to them?

If the person's reason for getting a PhD is to become a tenure-track professor in the humanities or social sciences, then my recommendation is to say "no, you can't be a professor." Some information on why:

Open Letter to My Students: No, You Cannot be a Professor.

This Just In, Again.

Mamas Don't Let Your Babies Become Academics.

Post-2008 Knowledge & the Future of the Humanities (and Area Studies).

Before everyone gets into a huff about better academic job prospects for people with PhDs in economics or psychology than in history, there is demand for people with doctorates in both of those fields outside of academia, where the salaries are often far higher.

[Ruralguy]

The  problem in some of these other fields you mention is now getting any applicants at all (at least at small colleges in "undesirable locations.").

[Charlotte]

If the person's reason for getting a PhD is to become a tenure-track professor in the humanities or social sciences, then my recommendation is to say "no, you can't be a professor."

They are not in humanities or social sciences.

[mleok]

If the person's reason for getting a PhD is to become a tenure-track professor in the humanities or social sciences, then my recommendation is to say "no, you can't be a professor."

They are not in humanities or social sciences.

But, even if they're not, how realistic a chance do they have of getting a tenure-track position in the kind of institution they are aiming for with a PhD from the regional program? You said in your original post that the PhD program is not aimed at preparing students to be faculty at large universities and definitely not R1s, yet your friend aims to get hired at a larger program with support for research, and that it's important for them not to be limited to regional schools. It sounds like you already know what you need to tell them, so I'm not sure what further feedback you require from us. You know how academic prestige works, and that places with support for research generally want to hire faculty who received their PhDs at comparable or better institutions.

[Charlotte]

. It sounds like you already know what you need to tell them, so I'm not sure what further feedback you require from us.

I did not ask for further feedback.

[Mobius]

Don't be like this after writing this: "Is there anything else you would recommend to them?"

[Ruralguy]

I think Mleok makes the most salient point. It really is extremely unrealistic to expect to go from a regional program to an R1 job. It might be possible in a few steps over many years. I've seen some go from reginal program to job at my school, to job at R2 to job at R1, but it takes a very long time and is rare and you have to be very willing to work at these other places on your way up. I wouldn't recommend it as a plan!

[Kron3007]

I think Mleok makes the most salient point. It really is extremely unrealistic to expect to go from a regional program to an R1 job. It might be possible in a few steps over many years. I've seen some go from reginal program to job at my school, to job at R2 to job at R1, but it takes a very long time and is rare and you have to be very willing to work at these other places on your way up. I wouldn't recommend it as a plan!

The OP didn't specify that their friend only meant an R1, just a larger university.  I am not that familiar with the US system, but are there not a lot of large R2 universities with reasonable research support?  Sounds like it may still be unlikely from this university, but I think it changes the odds.

[Ruralguy]

OP was a little unclear. At one point she clearly states that an adviser criticizes this approach because it would be hopeless for R1 jobs. Elsewhere she, the OP,  uses the term "larger" or "bigger." However, at times this seems to mean "bigger name." Perhaps the OP can clarify. In any case, as you say, some of the same points can be made anyway (yes, some R2s and SLAC's provide research support, though SLACs are almost all small by anyone's definition). So, its a very marginal approach for R1 jobs and maybe just plain marginal for R2 or competitive SLACs.