(Zoom) Class not engaging, I ended class in the middle - what next?

[old_school]

Yesterday, after teaching my group of supremely apathetic and unengaged students on Zoom I finally had it. My frustration finally got the better of me, and 15 minutes into the Zoom session I abruptly ended class by telling them that I wouldn't continue on, and that I was tired of them not engaging with the material or me. I also told them that they would responsible for everything we would have covered in class, as I would not be going over this day's lecture next time we met.

Examples of this non-engagement throughout this semester:

• I can't even get them to respond to "good morning" when I start the Zoom meeting, even though I have told them that it helps me establish that they can hear me (never mind that it's common courtesy to acknowledge a greeting).


• Over half of the students don't even bother to turn on their cameras, I'm just tired of doing a virtual podcast.


• I will explain a concept, ask if they have any question, get none, and then literally a minute later give them a short question/simple problem about this and none can do it.


• I will ask their *opinion* on something subjective (i.e., no right or wrong answer), and none of them will offer one.


• When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.


• The only students who have shown up during office hours have come to haggle over points (based on not reading the assignment or feedback carefully - i.e., pointless)

I%u2019ve been teaching for quite a while, and I'm at a loss, I've never had a group like this who isn't even minimally interested in participating in their own learning. I am very frustrated. It's not as if everyone is acing the class, not even close.

I am pretty sure I am going to lift my required attendance policy (though I will continue to track it) - if they don't want to be there, they shouldn't, they aren't doing anyone a favor.

I'm not happy this happened, but it did. So, my question is, what do I do next?

Do I resume my class tomorrow as if nothing has happened? Do I just drone on and on and give up asking them any questions as they never volunteer any answers, and if called on, act put upon? What's the point of having class if there's no interaction between the parties? I'm trying to avoid just being the one talking non-stop for the whole 50 minutes, hence questions and breakout rooms - to no avail.

As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?

How do I turn this around to be a more successful class for them and myself?

FWIW, my two other classes are going along as mostly expected, also via Zoom, with much more student engagement.

PS: They know that 5% of their final grade is based on class contribution/participation.

[marshwiggle]

As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?

This seems to be the basis for your expectations. Students who aren't like you won't see being (apparently) passive as a bad thing.

I've been teaching completely asynchronously since the beginning of the pandemic; no Zoom sessions or recorded material at all. Most students have managed to complete everything (most of my teaching is labs and courses with a heavy lab/project component) without ever needing to interact face-to-face in real time, many without even by email.
Based on the quality of their work, they were pretty "engaged" even though many of them never directly interacted with me.

I realize it doesn't answer the question, but I thought a different perspective might be helpful.

[arcturus]

Several years ago, in a face-to-face course, I had student engagement problems. At the recommendation of a friend, I used a mid-semester evaluation activity to help get things back on track. Without my having to say anything explicitly, the activity itself indicated that effective teaching requires input both from the instructor and the students.

The activity:
1) take a blank piece of paper and draw/fold so that there are four quadrants.
2) label the four quadrants as (a) what the instructor does well; (b) what I am doing well; (c) what the instructor could do to improve; (d) what I could do to improve
3) fill out answers in each respective quadrant and hand in
4) report common answers at next class meeting

You can do this virtually with type-written answers in blank Word/Google doc documents. It should be anonymous, so don't have it done as an assignment with corresponding entry in the grade book.

I received the expected feedback on my teaching (good and bad). The students acknowledged that they should be spending more time engaging with the material outside of class so that they were prepared in class. One other most common "bad" behaviour was lack of sleep (this was an early morning class meeting time).

Having a frank discussion based on the results of this activity helped build trust and improved further class discussions on course topics. As a class, they were still far-below typical norms of engagement in that course, but at least I was no longer frustrated every.single.day.

Having said that, I expect that this activity will not work well if you do it immediately after you have publickly called them out on their behaviour. It will take time to re-build any raport that you had before.

[Ruralguy]

Yes, in order for a dead class to engage, you have to give them something to do, or they won't do anything, as you know.  I wouldn't grade it at first, but start grading them and include them in some aspect of your established syllabus if they don't even do that.

Don't end class again, at least not that early. That will just haunt you.

We all face this problem at some point or another (or most of us do),  and its Ok to force them to do stuff if they don't do it on their own.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I feel for you op - and have to chuckle at the nerve it must have taken to end class after 15 minutes of disengaged students.

At this point, you probably need to course correct, both for your sake and for theirs. You could try to engage them with fun activities or start cold calling and shaming those who are too lazy or ignorant to respond. Either way, let us know how it goes!

[old_school]

As a student I hated having the prof not try to engage the class through questions. How can you learn if you don't engage? Maybe I should care less, i.e., disengage too?

This seems to be the basis for your expectations. Students who aren't like you won't see being (apparently) passive as a bad thing.

I've been teaching completely asynchronously since the beginning of the pandemic; no Zoom sessions or recorded material at all. Most students have managed to complete everything (most of my teaching is labs and courses with a heavy lab/project component) without ever needing to interact face-to-face in real time, many without even by email.
Based on the quality of their work, they were pretty "engaged" even though many of them never directly interacted with me.

I realize it doesn't answer the question, but I thought a different perspective might be helpful.

Yes, thank you, certainly food for thought. I appreciate you sharing this with me.

[old_school]

Several years ago, in a face-to-face course, I had student engagement problems. At the recommendation of a friend, I used a mid-semester evaluation activity to help get things back on track. Without my having to say anything explicitly, the activity itself indicated that effective teaching requires input both from the instructor and the students.

The activity:
1) take a blank piece of paper and draw/fold so that there are four quadrants.
2) label the four quadrants as (a) what the instructor does well; (b) what I am doing well; (c) what the instructor could do to improve; (d) what I could do to improve
3) fill out answers in each respective quadrant and hand in
4) report common answers at next class meeting

You can do this virtually with type-written answers in blank Word/Google doc documents. It should be anonymous, so don't have it done as an assignment with corresponding entry in the grade book.

I received the expected feedback on my teaching (good and bad). The students acknowledged that they should be spending more time engaging with the material outside of class so that they were prepared in class. One other most common "bad" behaviour was lack of sleep (this was an early morning class meeting time).

Having a frank discussion based on the results of this activity helped build trust and improved further class discussions on course topics. As a class, they were still far-below typical norms of engagement in that course, but at least I was no longer frustrated every.single.day.

Having said that, I expect that this activity will not work well if you do it immediately after you have publickly called them out on their behaviour. It will take time to re-build any raport that you had before.

Thanks for the suggestion, and advice re timing. I used to give midsemester surveys, but stopped a few years ago, perhaps a good reason to resume them again. I hadn't heard of the specific method you mention, I like it, as it requires reflection on everyone's behavior.

[old_school]

Yes, in order for a dead class to engage, you have to give them something to do, or they won't do anything, as you know.  I wouldn't grade it at first, but start grading them and include them in some aspect of your established syllabus if they don't even do that.

Don't end class again, at least not that early. That will just haunt you.

We all face this problem at some point or another (or most of us do),  and its Ok to force them to do stuff if they don't do it on their own.

Thank you, yes, I don't plan to repeat this, my frustration just really got to that point. Not proud this happened.

[old_school]

I feel for you op - and have to chuckle at the nerve it must have taken to end class after 15 minutes of disengaged students.

At this point, you probably need to course correct, both for your sake and for theirs. You could try to engage them with fun activities or start cold calling and shaming those who are too lazy or ignorant to respond. Either way, let us know how it goes!

Well, it wasn't planned, I just had enough and couldn't muster going on. It was rash, and in retrospect probably not wise. I'm not sure this helps students realize how their passivity has an effect on others (me) or if this will have any impact on them. I come prepared to every class, I expect a minimum of participation from the students - they can't even respond to a "good morning". I see learning as a cooperative thing, but I feel like I have to carry all of it, as someone upstream correctly said, this expectation may be the cause of my problems.

Yes, I will have to make some adjustments, hence my post here and looking for ideas/suggestions. I appreciate the posts I've gotten thus far.

[Hegemony]

I agree that asynchronous is better. But let's assume that you're stuck with Zoom for now.

You have to call on people specifically and randomly. Example:

"Let's look at this paragraph from 1850 complaining about why women didn't want to get married. I'm going to call on someone to read it, and then I'm going to call on someone to answer this question: what does this writer get right about women's reasons, or what does he get wrong? I'm going to share my screen now. There, everyone see the paragraph? Brandon, will you read us that paragraph out loud? No, you're muted. There." [Brandon reads the paragraph out loud.] "Well, that's some opinion! Let's collect views on whether this author got it right. Emily, give us your thoughts — is this guy an idiot, or does he understand women? You're muted. Okay, go." [Emily slowly gives her opinion, with increasing emphasis.] "So Emily, that sounds like you think he's an idiot?" [Emily answers.] "Right, we have one vote for idiot. Martin, what are your thoughts on this guy's understanding of women? You're muted." [Martin gives opinion.] "Great observation, Martin, I especially like how you pointed out that [whatever]. We have two votes for 'idiot.' Anyone think maybe this guy has a bit of a point?" Etc.

Also, you can give them a specific thing to figure out and then put them in short breakout rooms. Then specifically call on them to report the conclusion that was reached in their room's discussion.

In in-person classes, sometimes you can get by without calling on students randomly. I just don't think you can do it by Zoom. It's too cumbersome and time-consuming and potentially humiliating to volunteer. They just won't do it, as you have observed. But they DO have thoughts about the topic. You just have to make it easier for them to speak up, by calling on them.

I also make it known that when people's cameras are off, I will call on them more frequently. That helps keep cameras on. And sometimes I take informal polls — "Hands up if you think Mrs. Smith should have divorced her husband. One, two, three... I think divorce has a majority. Yet there could have been some drawbacks to divorce in the 19th century, as we've seen. Mason, I see you didn't raise your hand. Why would you have advised Mrs. Smith not to divorce?" And so on. You have to go out and get the comments.

[dr_evil]

I've had similar problems - no one turns on the camera, almost no one greets anyone when we start, few people interacting with the material at all. I've had some luck with embedding questions as multiple choice Zoom polls instead of asking for answers more directly. I still get a significant number that won't answer, but the response is better and I get some idea of where they're at. I've also noticed fewer people that don't log off after class finishes (the ones I suspect login and then disappear to game or sleep). I just have a generic poll set up, so that if needed, I can make something up as it occurs. Clear the results and re-use as needed.

I still haven't had much luck getting people to interact in breakout rooms though.

[old_school]

I agree that asynchronous is better. But let's assume that you're stuck with Zoom for now.

You have to call on people specifically and randomly.

Also, you can give them a specific thing to figure out and then put them in short breakout rooms. Then specifically call on them to report the conclusion that was reached in their room's discussion.

In in-person classes, sometimes you can get by without calling on students randomly. I just don't think you can do it by Zoom. It's too cumbersome and time-consuming and potentially humiliating to volunteer. They just won't do it, as you have observed. But they DO have thoughts about the topic. You just have to make it easier for them to speak up, by calling on them.

I also make it known that when people's cameras are off, I will call on them more frequently. That helps keep cameras on. And sometimes I take informal polls — "Hands up if you think Mrs. Smith should have divorced her husband. One, two, three... I think divorce has a majority. Yet there could have been some drawbacks to divorce in the 19th century, as we've seen. Mason, I see you didn't raise your hand. Why would you have advised Mrs. Smith not to divorce?" And so on. You have to go out and get the comments.

Loved your very vivid example - thank you.

I am in a synchronous setup - but I have now decided to do away with the required attendance policy, I just don't see much point of them being there if they aren't going to participate. I'd rather see fewer black zoom boxes in that case.

I do call on them, and my standard thing to do is that if they don't know the answer, they get to call on a classmate to answer it .. that usually engages them (again this class isn't really responding).

Even if I do a short poll, like who thinks something is a good idea, who thinks it's a bad idea, I'll get maybe 20% of the class indicate anything at all, the 80% won't participate. They can't even muster a response to "good morning" :-/

I have been using Breakout rooms from time to time for solving problems collaboratively, I'll have to think if there's anything I can do to tweak this. Again, most of this works well with my other classes.

[old_school]

I've had similar problems - no one turns on the camera, almost no one greets anyone when we start, few people interacting with the material at all. I've had some luck with embedding questions as multiple choice Zoom polls instead of asking for answers more directly. I still get a significant number that won't answer, but the response is better and I get some idea of where they're at. I've also noticed fewer people that don't log off after class finishes (the ones I suspect login and then disappear to game or sleep). I just have a generic poll set up, so that if needed, I can make something up as it occurs. Clear the results and re-use as needed.

I still haven't had much luck getting people to interact in breakout rooms though.

Ok, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is experiencing some of this. Yes, black boxes (ie students w/o cameras on) often will not respond when I call on them - I suspect they aren't even there most of the time.  Hence, my decision to now retire my required attendance policy for this class, no point having them there if they don't want to be.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take another look at Zoom polls, in the past when I have used them they seemed somewhat cumbersome to set up and use (esp ad-hoc) but perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly.

[dr_evil]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll have to take another look at Zoom polls, in the past when I have used them they seemed somewhat cumbersome to set up and use (esp ad-hoc) but perhaps I'm not remembering this correctly.

Polls can be annoying, but my single question poll is "Answer the question on the slide. Select A, B, C, or D." The question is written on the slide, but I can also write one out on the Zoom whiteboard. Keeping it generic and re-using the same poll makes it much easier to manage.

[Liquidambar]

When I put them into breakout rooms to collaborate on a small task, the majority will not talk to others, and I don't see any more cameras turned on either.

My breakout rooms became much more participatory when I gave the students a shared document to work on.  For example, if I plan to have 5 breakout rooms, I prepare a Google slides document with 5 slides, each of which had the same matching exercise (e.g., drag the labels in column B so they correctly describe the graphs in column A).  I paste the link in the Zoom chat.  Breakout room 1 goes to slide 1, breakout room 2 to slide 2, etc.  I can monitor their progress while they work, write small comments in the slide to address minor issues, and pop into the breakout rooms where they're really confused or making no progress.  If the task won't fit on a single slide, you can make a separate shared document for each group.  As long as you have the links in a text file ready to paste into the chat, it's not that much more complicated.