Rittenhouse Case

[nebo113]

ETA: whoa just saw this, sickening....https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/11/car-rams-through-waukesha-holiday-parade-leaving-at-least-5-dead-40-injured-in-milwaukee-suburb.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:34 AM by mahagonny »


Vehicle registered to Antifa and driven by Black Lives Matter.

[marshwiggle]

Should Grosskreutz be charged as well?

I was under the impression that Grosskreutz had just seen two people killed with a gun. I thought we "wanted" a good person with a gun to intervene in such a situation.

I'm not sure who "we" is; I'm a Canadian, and I'm very much for the guns on the street being in the hands of law enforcement, not the mob. (Rioters, from whatever part of the political spectrum, are a danger to the community and to democracy itself. People who are willing to destroy property and attack people are by definition unwilling to abide by any agreed-upon societal limits.)

[marshwiggle]

So, look, President says verdict must be respected even though it makes him angry

"will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included."

Secretary of Transport echoes "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about"

So, to hell with the judiciary!

Nothing about the Buttegieg quote implies that. Here it is from FoxNews in full:

"Look, there's a lot of pain in this country, and that pain and that frustration was aroused by the entire case, including the verdict," Buttigieg said. "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about, but we'll move forward as a country.

"The president continues to believe and this administration continues to believe in America and we've got to continue working to bring Americans together," he said."

I'm fairly confident that you and I have both felt that way about various cases and verdicts. Are we saying "to hell with the judiciary" when we have those feelings? I know I'm not.

Isn't this the kind of thing Trump was accused of, the sort of wink and nod to the crazies about how the system had somehow failed, and if citizens were angry, well who could blame them?

[Wahoo Redux]

So, look, President says verdict must be respected even though it makes him angry

"will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included."

Secretary of Transport echoes "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about"

So, to hell with the judiciary!

Nothing about the Buttegieg quote implies that. Here it is from FoxNews in full:

"Look, there's a lot of pain in this country, and that pain and that frustration was aroused by the entire case, including the verdict," Buttigieg said. "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about, but we'll move forward as a country.

"The president continues to believe and this administration continues to believe in America and we've got to continue working to bring Americans together," he said."

I'm fairly confident that you and I have both felt that way about various cases and verdicts. Are we saying "to hell with the judiciary" when we have those feelings? I know I'm not.

Isn't this the kind of thing Trump was accused of, the sort of wink and nod to the crazies about how the system had somehow failed, and if citizens were angry, well who could blame them?

No Marshy, it's not. 

[mahagonny]

So, look, President says verdict must be respected even though it makes him angry

"will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included."

Secretary of Transport echoes "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about"

So, to hell with the judiciary!

Nothing about the Buttegieg quote implies that. Here it is from FoxNews in full:

"Look, there's a lot of pain in this country, and that pain and that frustration was aroused by the entire case, including the verdict," Buttigieg said. "And for a lot of us, there's just a lot to be upset about, a lot to be concerned about, but we'll move forward as a country.

"The president continues to believe and this administration continues to believe in America and we've got to continue working to bring Americans together," he said."

I'm fairly confident that you and I have both felt that way about various cases and verdicts. Are we saying "to hell with the judiciary" when we have those feelings? I know I'm not.

Isn't this the kind of thing Trump was accused of, the sort of wink and nod to the crazies about how the system had somehow failed, and if citizens were angry, well who could blame them?

No Marshy, it's not.

Of course he was. Not to mention colluding with Russians to rig the election, which was a total B.S. story propped up by the media and cooked up by the Clintons.

[Wahoo Redux]

Breitbart, buddy.  Breitbart is calling.

[mahagonny]

ETA: whoa just saw this, sickening....https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/11/car-rams-through-waukesha-holiday-parade-leaving-at-least-5-dead-40-injured-in-milwaukee-suburb.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:34 AM by mahagonny »


Vehicle registered to Antifa and driven by Black Lives Matter.

Ban assault vehicles.
Apparently he has struck people with his auto before this. Why was he on the loose, I wonder.

[nebo113]

ETA: whoa just saw this, sickening....https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/11/car-rams-through-waukesha-holiday-parade-leaving-at-least-5-dead-40-injured-in-milwaukee-suburb.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:34 AM by mahagonny »


Vehicle registered to Antifa and driven by Black Lives Matter.

Ugly black dude has record of firing handgun, stolen weapons, meth, domestic violence/abuse.  Damn the liberal justice system for not locking him up forever.  Damn AOC!

Ban assault vehicles.
Apparently he has struck people with his auto before this. Why was he on the loose, I wonder.

[ciao_yall]

ETA: whoa just saw this, sickening....https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/11/car-rams-through-waukesha-holiday-parade-leaving-at-least-5-dead-40-injured-in-milwaukee-suburb.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:34 AM by mahagonny »


Vehicle registered to Antifa and driven by Black Lives Matter.

Ugly black dude has record of firing handgun, stolen weapons, meth, domestic violence/abuse.  Damn the liberal justice system for not locking him up forever.  Damn AOC!

Ban assault vehicles.
Apparently he has struck people with his auto before this. Why was he on the loose, I wonder.

Either of you happen to work for the DuPage County Democratic Party? Because you are both a couple of class acts.

[quasihumanist]

I have long held the opinion that our laws should be changed so that claims of self-defense (or defense of others) must be based on an actual threat.

Keep in mind that our common law notions of self defense developed before there were firearms, when there were few situations where you would reasonably think someone was trying to kill you without them already trying to hack you with a sword.

Yes this means some people will go to jail for making a mistake, but if you have deadly force available to you, you should be pretty sure not to make mistakes.

Yes this means police will have to take more risks with their lives, but I am confident that fewer total people will be killed.

Personally, I'd rather die than kill someone, but I don't insist this attitude be codified into law.

I respect the decisions of juries.  I don't know if the change of law I suggested would have made a difference in this case.

I am disturbed that two gangs could shoot each other on the streets and have no one be guilty of murder because everyone can claim self-defense.  I hope someone can think of ways to have laws that address this situation.  Perhaps there can be a felony version of disorderly conduct that could apply.

[mahagonny]

I don't know that the killing of Timpa was about race----I had never heard of the incident before.   It sounds more like police brutality to me, as does the Floyd case.  The Blake case sounds to me like excessive force on an admittedly violent and armed criminal.  I wouldn't know how to gage that one.

snip

If you think Timpa's death was an atrocity, go protest it.  That is your right.

I doubt it. I can't stand around with a group with signs that say 'White Lives Matter.'

Nebo: I think there is near unanimous agreement that people who would drive a speeding car into a crowd of elderly women and others is bad thing to do, and we need the laws that we have that are against that.

ETA:

I am disturbed that two gangs could shoot each other on the streets and have no one be guilty of murder because everyone can claim self-defense.  I hope someone can think of ways to have laws that address this situation.  Perhaps there can be a felony version of disorderly conduct that could apply.

If yesterday your city had mostly peaceful demonstrations that turned into violence and arson after dusk, then you should be able to rule, 'OK, no more demonstrating for the rest of the week.'

[dismalist]

I have long held the opinion that our laws should be changed so that claims of self-defense (or defense of others) must be based on an actual threat.

Keep in mind that our common law notions of self defense developed before there were firearms, when there were few situations where you would reasonably think someone was trying to kill you without them already trying to hack you with a sword.

Yes this means some people will go to jail for making a mistake, but if you have deadly force available to you, you should be pretty sure not to make mistakes.

Yes this means police will have to take more risks with their lives, but I am confident that fewer total people will be killed.

Personally, I'd rather die than kill someone, but I don't insist this attitude be codified into law.

I respect the decisions of juries. I don't know if the change of law I suggested would have made a difference in this case.

I am disturbed that two gangs could shoot each other on the streets and have no one be guilty of murder because everyone can claim self-defense.  I hope someone can think of ways to have laws that address this situation.  Perhaps there can be a felony version of disorderly conduct that could apply.

That is very thoughtful, quasi.

I am mostly with you.

When the "right to bear arms" was formulated, the arm was a musket, something that could hardly be used in the rain, could be reloaded quickly only by highly trained  --- malitiamen, and could kill with some certainty only if there was a mass of muskets handled by -- militiamen, or a long rifle could be used by a hunter with good accuracy, but hardly able to re-load.

A felony version of disorderly might very well be a good idea, but I don't see it coming from elected representatives. Maybe judges?

[mahagonny]

It may turn out that Rittenhouse is not poor for the rest of his life. Defamation cases are hard to win, but many misstatements of fact have happened in the media, and millions heard them, and everywhere you go people are buzzing about it, some are believing false things and lashing out in social media because of the false things they believe about K.R. which at the very least causes him prolonged emotional/psychological stress. I think he could win a pile of money. I don't love the guy, but in my opinion putting Joy Reid and a few other loudmouths out of business would be a very good thing for our society.
Would that be cancel culture? Well, MSNBC would have the option to keep her around if they think it's good for their business, or for any other reason. That would be their call.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/kyle-rittenhouse-has-every-right-to-sue-the-media-for-defamation

ETA: If someone wants to go on national television and claim you are a white supremacist they should be prepared to prove it. Malice would be easily proven, since few things are reviled than a white supremacist.

an example of a successful case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnett_v._National_Enquirer,_Inc.

[Wahoo Redux]

I have long held the opinion that our laws should be changed so that claims of self-defense (or defense of others) must be based on an actual threat.


I am disturbed that two gangs could shoot each other on the streets and have no one be guilty of murder because everyone can claim self-defense. 

I don't think that is quite the situation in the Rittenhouse case.

The kid was pursued by three full-grown adults who decided, for whatever reason, that they were justifiably provoked.  One of them did have a gun.  Judging by Rittenhouse's pudgy adolescent frame, I don't think he would have been a very formidable opponent.  One can die or take very serious injury from a kick in the head or a blow to the head from a skateboard.  Or one can sustain serious injury, even maiming injury, even fatal injury, to the body from other people's hands and feet alone.

I wonder if someone who knows more about colonial America can speak to the violence from that time.   From a cursory search online, it does seem that violence of all sorts was endemic, and while an assault rifle is clearly more lethal than a musket, a sword is a deadly weapon.  You may not be able to spray a crowd with a sword, but running someone through or cutting off a body part will not do them much good. 

I am not someone who would rather die than kill someone else.  I certainly, absolutely do not want to harm ANY living creature (I caused a very minor traffic jam the other day to avoid a particularly stupid squirrel) but I see no reason I should allow myself, my wife, or even our dogs to suffer attack if I have the means to protect us.  When we moved to our current city, which is very high on the violent crime index, I retrieved my old .22 target pistol and my late father's Army issue .38 revolver from my old home.  Both are upstairs in our bedroom, fully loaded. The drivers in our town are VERY aggressive and very bad (traffic laws are only suggestions here) and I have considered putting one of these weapons in our car, although I have not done so yet.  I have never shot at a living thing, and I hope never to, but I will defend myself and my family, even our friends who occasionally come to stay, if we are endangered.  I also think this applies to dignity; why should I be humiliated by a violent person when I can defend myself using a weapon?  I see nothing wrong with this attitude.  There is a line from The Wire: "You start shit you can't complain about how shit goes down."

[nebo113]

ETA: whoa just saw this, sickening....https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/11/car-rams-through-waukesha-holiday-parade-leaving-at-least-5-dead-40-injured-in-milwaukee-suburb.html
« Last Edit: Today at 04:45:34 AM by mahagonny »


Vehicle registered to Antifa and driven by Black Lives Matter.

Ugly black dude has record of firing handgun, stolen weapons, meth, domestic violence/abuse.  Damn the liberal justice system for not locking him up forever.  Damn AOC!

Ban assault vehicles.
Apparently he has struck people with his auto before this. Why was he on the loose, I wonder.

Either of you happen to work for the DuPage County Democratic Party? Because you are both a couple of class acts.

I'm sick and tired of our in house troll, so I've decided to troll the troll.