South Carolina abolishing tenure

[mamselle]

These decent "professional musicians" will be perfectly fine for most institutions and will produce solid graduates. 

Weird example...what's you music background, anyway?

MOST professional musicians come "up through the ranks" in non-academic settings, whether or not they also have solid, related degrees, even advanced ones.

Your band leader cares much more about your modal scale chops than what your degree is, although there are many, from Beverly Sills to Diana Krall, who had/have both qualifications/qualities and can do just fine, as well.

Even with whatever academic prep I've had over the years, I don't get an agency booking without someone hears me play, asks those I've worked with about my skill levels, and/or auditions me.

The proof of the pudding, and all that...

     《....goes off to practice》

M.

[marshwiggle]

These decent "professional musicians" will be perfectly fine for most institutions and will produce solid graduates. 

Weird example...what's you music background, anyway?

MOST professional musicians come "up through the ranks" in non-academic settings, whether or not they also have solid, related degrees, even advanced ones.

Your band leader cares much more about your modal scale chops than what your degree is, although there are many, from Beverly Sills to Diana Krall, who had/have both qualifications/qualities and can do just fine, as well.

Even with whatever academic prep I've had over the years, I don't get an agency booking without someone hears me play, asks those I've worked with about my skill levels, and/or auditions me.

The proof of the pudding, and all that...

     《....goes off to practice》

M.

My point was to try and extend the analogy. A rock star is a musician who is famous and rich, and some of that is often due to the luck of being in the right place and the right time.

Professional musicians includes all kinds of people who may be as talented as the rock stars, but having not achieved the fame can potentially still make a decent living playing in orchestras, as studio musicians, or teaching (or all of the above.)

So where/if they studied music wasn't relevant; it was what kind of living they could make at their craft. For academics, there are few who become big names, and most who don't. And the difference often isn't as much about the quality of their work as whether it happens to make a big enough splash.

[mleok]

In an ironic but unsurprising twist, tenure track professors are now being required to pledge allegiance to 'diversity, equity and inclusion.' The very same structure, tenure, that was designed to protect and encourage free intellectual inquiry and dissemination of new knowledge, now officially, overtly, enforces conformity. You want the salary and the career? Join the religion and start confessing your whiteness. Not your cup up tea? Fine, step out of the line then. There are others waiting.
Well, as someone said, there will always be a California.
Tyranny is here.

https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2018/10/18/i_pledge_allegiance_to_diversity_and_to_the_tenure_for_which_it_stands.html

ETA: Actually, in theory, you should be able to answer this question your own way, from the heart. Justice is in the eye of the beholder:

No one knows how many schools require such diversity statements, but the practice appears to be in vogue. Vassar College, for example, requires tenure-track job candidates to write about their contributions to social justice.

So for example if this is your idea of social justice you should be able to answer
"I made a donation to Bob Woodson's foundation "'1776 Unites'" whose mission statement says

"In the rush to redefine the place of black Americans in contemporary society, many radical activists and academics have mounted a campaign to destroy traditional American history and replace it with a politicized version that few would recognize. According to the new radical orthodoxy, the United States was founded as a racist nation—and everything that has happened throughout our history must be viewed through the lens of the systemic oppression of black people.

Rejecting this false narrative, a collection of the most prominent and respected black scholars and thinkers has come together to correct the record and tell the true story of black Americans in all its complexity, diversity of experience, and poignancy."

See how far you'd get with that at Vassar College.

That's a misrepresentation of the situation at the University of California. The tenure process will consider a candidate's contributions to DEI if the candidate chooses to include such a statement, but it is not a requirement for tenure. It is true that one now needs to submit a DEI statement when applying for a tenure-track position, but unless it's a position that is targeted at improving the diversity of the faculty, it's a statement that isn't given much weight in the process. In that regard, it's a bit like a teaching statement...

[Wahoo Redux]

These decent "professional musicians" will be perfectly fine for most institutions and will produce solid graduates. 

Weird example...what's you music background, anyway?

MOST professional musicians come "up through the ranks" in non-academic settings, whether or not they also have solid, related degrees, even advanced ones.

Your band leader cares much more about your modal scale chops than what your degree is, although there are many, from Beverly Sills to Diana Krall, who had/have both qualifications/qualities and can do just fine, as well.

Even with whatever academic prep I've had over the years, I don't get an agency booking without someone hears me play, asks those I've worked with about my skill levels, and/or auditions me.

The proof of the pudding, and all that...

     《....goes off to practice》

M.

My point was to try and extend the analogy. A rock star is a musician who is famous and rich, and some of that is often due to the luck of being in the right place and the right time.

Professional musicians includes all kinds of people who may be as talented as the rock stars, but having not achieved the fame can potentially still make a decent living playing in orchestras, as studio musicians, or teaching (or all of the above.)

So where/if they studied music wasn't relevant; it was what kind of living they could make at their craft. For academics, there are few who become big names, and most who don't. And the difference often isn't as much about the quality of their work as whether it happens to make a big enough splash.

Are you a musician, Marshy?

Faculty musicians ARE professional-grade musicians.   The single best musician I have ever known personally was my old undergrad professor.   

I am a devotee of Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Blondie, and The Ramones-----but there is no skill level comparison between a "rock star" and the people populating the halls of college music buildings.

Stick to what you know, buddy.

[mahagonny]

Professional, serious musicians go by what they hear only. There's only one endgame. It doesn't matter who you studied with or how many degrees you have. (Although if you studied with Segovia, you're good, because he only took the cream of the crop. If you worked with Art Blakey more than once, you're good.) But the serious musician needs only to listen to the product to know. Sometimes the PhD is even considered a liability. As in, if you were really in demand you wouldn't have had time for so much school. Like most biases, true in some cases.

[Stockmann]

My money would be on that in the fields with the worst job markets, pretty much everyone will stay put even if they took tenure from those who already have it, except possibly for faculty both retirement age and not very productive, who would just retire. In fields with in-between circumstances, the best people will either leave or negotiate raises, the rest will just stay put. In the fields with the best job markets, they'll have major problems unless there are substantial raises to make up for tenure. So for the fields with the worst job markets they'll probably get, for the same cost, departments that work the same or better (if any deadwood leaves) than before, for the fields with the best job markets it will cost extra just to keep things as they are.

[Wahoo Redux]

Professional, serious musicians go by what they hear only. There's only one endgame. It doesn't matter who you studied with or how many degrees you have. (Although if you studied with Segovia, you're good, because he only took the cream of the crop. If you worked with Art Blakey more than once, you're good.) But the serious musician needs only to listen to the product to know. Sometimes the PhD is even considered a liability. As in, if you were really in demand you wouldn't have had time for so much school. Like most biases, true in some cases.

A recital accompanies every college musical job-search I have ever heard of.

[marshwiggle]

Faculty musicians ARE professional-grade musicians.   The single best musician I have ever known personally was my old undergrad professor.   

I am a devotee of Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Blondie, and The Ramones-----but there is no skill level comparison between a "rock star" and the people populating the halls of college music buildings.

Stick to what you know, buddy.

I thought it was blindingly obvious that "rock star" was a metaphor, having nothing to do with education, and so "professional musician" was extending the metaphor, again having nothing to do with education, to illustrate a different domain (i.e. music) as having similarities to professors in academia (in particular, professors who do research and teaching) in terms of how different levels of recognition result in different career options available.

(Paul McCartney doesn't read music. Or didn't anyway. Clearly becoming a literal rock star does not depend on any sort of post-secondary education. Sheesh.)

[mahagonny]

Professional, serious musicians go by what they hear only. There's only one endgame. It doesn't matter who you studied with or how many degrees you have. (Although if you studied with Segovia, you're good, because he only took the cream of the crop. If you worked with Art Blakey more than once, you're good.) But the serious musician needs only to listen to the product to know. Sometimes the PhD is even considered a liability. As in, if you were really in demand you wouldn't have had time for so much school. Like most biases, true in some cases.

A recital accompanies every college musical job-search I have ever heard of.

That may be, but most of the time the strongest talent is found in the adjunct faculty. Open secret.

ETA: Not that there aren't standards for full time positions. Of course there are, (although they are slipping dramatically in some schools) but it is other dynamics that result in the concentration of performing talent in the adjunct pool.

[Kate]

Hi Kate!

Good enough, for undergraduate education. :-)

Hi!

Certainly good enough somehow... but we can take it then to an extreme, proposing an auction for who would teach Gen Bio 101. The lowest bidder would get the job. :)) In this utopian scenario, I would propose hiring everyone part-time and for 1 or 2 classes only (so that not to pay any benefits)...

Jokes apart, I think a respectable institution should be dreaming of becoming a better place, and not doing something that would certainly hurt the quality and make it "good enough".

I think students would certainly notice. And the research rank may fall from say an R1 to an R3.

[Kate]

This. Your friendly neighborhood political scientist here to remind y'all that bills are often introduced for reasons other than actually making law, such as showing the home folks that you're doing something about those crayzee college professors. Some years ago there was a bill introduced in the Other Carolina that would have put all state schools on something like a 5-5 load. Various industries in the state helped educate the legislature about how that would kill the state's efforts to lure more industry to the state. The bill quietly died. It's good to be vigilant but I wouldn't panic yet.

Oh, nice to see here people from different fields!! Interesting! Thank you for sharing.

[lightning]

Hi Kate!

Good enough, for undergraduate education. :-)

Hi!

Certainly good enough somehow... but we can take it then to an extreme, proposing an auction for who would teach Gen Bio 101. The lowest bidder would get the job. :)) In this utopian scenario, I would propose hiring everyone part-time and for 1 or 2 classes only (so that not to pay any benefits)...

Jokes apart, I think a respectable institution should be dreaming of becoming a better place, and not doing something that would certainly hurt the quality and make it "good enough".

I think students would certainly notice. And the research rank may fall from say an R1 to an R3.

Slipping from an R1 to an R3 would be quite a fall. There are an uncomfortable amount of shady characters in that R3 category (like Argosy and UoP among many others). I can't imagine any R1 slipping so far that they would be swimming with the likes of Argosy and UoP. At the same time, maybe the fear of being associated with the likes of Argosy and UoP, would slap some sense into South Carolina.

[dismalist]

Hi Kate!

Good enough, for undergraduate education. :-)

Hi!

Certainly good enough somehow... but we can take it then to an extreme, proposing an auction for who would teach Gen Bio 101. The lowest bidder would get the job. :)) In this utopian scenario, I would propose hiring everyone part-time and for 1 or 2 classes only (so that not to pay any benefits)...

Jokes apart, I think a respectable institution should be dreaming of becoming a better place, and not doing something that would certainly hurt the quality and make it "good enough".

I think students would certainly notice. And the research rank may fall from say an R1 to an R3.

What kind of car do you drive? It's not a Merc [advertising motto "the best or nothing"], is it? :-)

Me, I drive a VW, the people's car.

Cheers!

[mythbuster]

IF this were to pass (a big IF), I predict that MUSC would be exempt and that there would be rules for the big time STEM researchers to be rewarded for their indirect $$$ with course buyouts.

[mleok]

IF this were to pass (a big IF), I predict that MUSC would be exempt and that there would be rules for the big time STEM researchers to be rewarded for their indirect $$$ with course buyouts.

They don't seem to have any Nobel laureates, but they do have a number of National Academy members.