New Class Fall '21: Tardiness and Leaving

[mahagonny]

Classroom decorum/rules issues:

1. I've had quite a problem with students arriving late this semester. I recall a tenured guy at my other school years ago who shut the door at exactly the minute the class was to begin, and the door stayed locked. You could not be late. I've never done this but am thinking about it again. But one of the students is a well performing student (never absent, uses the tutor regularly) who has trouble with the public transportation, travels a good distance, and always emails me as far ahead of time as possible when that is happening. So I hesitate to try something that strict.

2. Students regularly get up in the middle and leave, then return. This is puzzling to me, since it's only a one hour class. My bladder is three times as old as theirs, and I never have to leave. I hesitate to make a rule, perhaps because the class is 80% female, so they may have situations I don't about.

The class meets at 8 am.

Thoughts?

[Morden]

I have noticed this (strange and distracting) pattern for a few years now, but I don't make rules about these situations because I can't know what's going on with the students. I do try to open with some sort of activity that begins right at the start of class rather than beginning with lecture. Then I try to use that activity in the lecture. I also try to switch things up every 15-20 minutes, but our classes are usually 1.5 or 2 hrs long. And our institution moved from 8am start to 8:30, not that I'm sure that's helped anything.

[Caracal]

2. Students regularly get up in the middle and leave, then return. This is puzzling to me, since it's only a one hour class. My bladder is three times as old as theirs, and I never have to leave. I hesitate to make a rule, perhaps because the class is 80% female, so they may have situations I don't about.

The class meets at 8 am.

Thoughts?

I've had reasonable success with just addressing this directly at the beginning of the semester. I tell students something like "obviously people sometimes need to leave the class for a minute, we are all adults and you don't need to ask permission. That said, it does get distracting for all of us if people are constantly coming and going. So, if you need to leave the room, don't worry about it at all, but limit it to times when it is necessary and it works fine for all of us."

If class is longer than 75 minutes, I'd think about having a five minute break in the middle.

[mahagonny]

2. Students regularly get up in the middle and leave, then return. This is puzzling to me, since it's only a one hour class. My bladder is three times as old as theirs, and I never have to leave. I hesitate to make a rule, perhaps because the class is 80% female, so they may have situations I don't about.

The class meets at 8 am.

Thoughts?

I've had reasonable success with just addressing this directly at the beginning of the semester. I tell students something like "obviously people sometimes need to leave the class for a minute, we are all adults and you don't need to ask permission. That said, it does get distracting for all of us if people are constantly coming and going. So, if you need to leave the room, don't worry about it at all, but limit it to times when it is necessary and it works fine for all of us."

If class is longer than 75 minutes, I'd think about having a five minute break in the middle.

Thank you.
I would too, but a five minute break for a fifty minute class seems ridiculous to me. How does a person who can't sit down and work on something for an hour straight succeed at anything? I think some of them are going out in the hall to communicate with someone on their cell phone. It wouldn't bother me this much except the class is not testing well. The workbook moves fast, and most of them can't afford to miss five minutes, unless it's very rarely. and some of them disappear for longer than that.
ETA: I'm going to try not to let this turn into a rant, but I suspect some students are taking undue advantage of the COVID mask era's pressure on us to be extra forgiving when they aren't doing the work.
Imagine how a student who can't spend one straight hour away from the cell phone is spending their personal time.

[fishbrains]

Professors who lock doors are a$$holes. $hit happens, especially for an early class or a night class. On the other hand, keeping the row closest to the door vacant for late arrivals or people who "need" to leave to check phones is fair game; students don't like not being able to go to their regular seats. It sends a quiet message.

The phone thing sounds like the best explanation for mid-class leavers, but students with kids in childcare or school and in other situations are expected to answer their buzzing phones quickly when the daycare (or whatever) calls. Of course, this probably only accounts for .0001% of the problem. They may just think they are being polite by leaving the room.

While it does sound counter-intuitive, I've had success with the 5-minute break, even for a 55-minute class (and maybe 7 minutes for an 80-minute class). The break allows me to shut-up and take stock of how the class is going, gives us all a quick break to check phones and/or get a snack and/or potty, and it's a good chance to talk to students informally to see if they are keeping up or experiencing other concerns. It also forces me to start on-time and go a little faster during class, so the students know they will be missing something if they show up late or leave. 

Also, I can't remember the last time I was still listening to someone after they had been talking for more than 25-30 minutes nonstop. They can punish my body, but . . .

[dismalist]

... who shut the door at exactly the minute the class was to begin, and the door stayed locked. You could not be late.

Whatever you do, Mahagonny, do not lock the doors! After all, in spite of some similarities, we are not prison guards.

A generation ago I had a colleague who did just as your colleague  --  locked the doors. The students already hated him for the subject we teach and for the personal asshole he was. The locked doors gave them a third reason to hate him.

Some suggestions in the thread above look very good. Having b-room and telephone breaks is one of the best. One can be stricter outside break time.

Look, we can't change the culture; we can only adapt to it in such wise as to minimize the cost to serious students. Tradeoffs wherever we look.

[apl68]

I don't ever recall hearing about a prof who locked doors.  Then again, when I was in the game I don't recall students leaving and coming back to class being an issue either, since this was just before cell phones got to be a huge deal.  I can't see taking a five-minute break in the midst of a class that lasts less than an hour, but this does seem like a situation that requires careful handling to avoid undue harshness.

[the_geneticist]

Sounds like some kind messaging is needed.
I had a class that used to pack up early until I said "I have a clock.  I promise I will not keep you late.  In return, please do not pack up early.  Does that sound fair?"
No problems after.
I really like  "If you know you'll need to leave early, please sit by the door".

[ciao_yall]

I can't sit still that long. In my doctoral program I would get up to use the bathroom just to move my hiney a bit.

Now Werner Erhard of EST would argue that I was trying to hide from difficult messages in the program. But really, I just found the program director to be a racist old fart. And one of his henchdudes a total anti-Semite who didn't even realize he was referring to the Chronicles of the Elders of Zion without realizing it.

[mahagonny]

Professors who lock doors are a$$holes. $hit happens, especially for an early class or a night class.

No doubt that can be true, but I am at the point where I am thinking some students are assholes. This may sound unpalatable or chauvinistic to some, but I think some of the young women are manipulative. They play up their feminine vulnerability to work me. One of them simply refused to answer two questions on the final exam. In the margin she wrote (UNFOCUSED). When I asked her about it she lowered her mask so I could see her whole face and put on a pitiful look. She 'explained' 'I just couldn't focus. I don't know'...[eyelashes flipping]. I'm not kidding. She's one of the ones who is always late. A gave her a bit of the riot act about that. But too late.
And the class is overpopulated, and they spent the whole semester without a department chair before they got one.
During the remote semesters, I was doing all my teaching at home. My wife would be in the kitchen. She later told our friends 'the way he teaches on zoom...he's just so NICE...' It may be hard for you to believe, as I sometimes vent online, but I think my niceness is biting me in the ass. They're taking advantage. And then it's grading time, and the work sucks.
(Or maybe what I should be noticing is I could be nicer to my wife.)
Good suggestions. If I get a chance to do this course again, I will have a better plan. Thnx
ETA: one thing I do understand: at my age, getting up at six a.m. is no trouble. Hell, I barely sleep any more. But when I was twenty, I could have slept 20 hours a day and been happy. Some of the kids in the 8 am class were probably sound asleep 20 minutes before.
I did announce on the first day that i am gender non-binary. (I also told the diversity chair). Several nodded in apparent support. But they still seem to see me as an old-fashioned chivalrous male (easy mark). Well, I have never been savvy around women.

[clean]

Being late is easier to fix.  In my first job, the city had a train that ran through town for 5 minutes or so every day.  Students would invariable use the train as an excuse to be late.  One professor started giving quizzes at the start of class every day that were very easy and short, but if you missed it, you didnt get any credit or make up.  Amazingly, the students were able to finally beat the train! 

Public transportation, however, may not be that flexible.  To 'beat the train' may mean that the student be on campus an hour earlier! 

For leaving, I am not sure I have any advice.  I just finished a class where one particular student left every class for a few minutes.  As she was quiet about it, I didnt say anything, but I never figured out the cause/reason that she had to leave every class but I didnt give too much thought on how to put a stop to it.  I guess that IF it were more distracting, I might have.

[mahagonny]

I can't sit still that long. In my doctoral program I would get up to use the bathroom just to move my hiney a bit.

Now Werner Erhard of EST would argue that I was trying to hide from difficult messages in the program. But really, I just found the program director to be a racist old fart. And one of his henchdudes a total anti-Semite who didn't even realize he was referring to the Chronicles of the Elders of Zion without realizing it.

Was it really the need to move around, or were you making an editorial comment?
These undergrads are not engaged on that level. The message they find difficult is 'this is gonna take sustained effort.'
My only henchman is the tutor and most of the ones who need to meet up with her, don't.
Of course the ongoing COVID worries aren't making it easier.

[Caracal]

Being late is easier to fix.  In my first job, the city had a train that ran through town for 5 minutes or so every day.  Students would invariable use the train as an excuse to be late.  One professor started giving quizzes at the start of class every day that were very easy and short, but if you missed it, you didnt get any credit or make up.  Amazingly, the students were able to finally beat the train! 

Public transportation, however, may not be that flexible.  To 'beat the train' may mean that the student be on campus an hour earlier! 

If you're going from one end of our campus to the other you can't make it on foot in 15 minutes, unless you actually run. The buses get stacked up and aren't reliably going to get you to class on time. I tell students to just let me know if they have a class on the other end of campus.

I have found for all this stuff that talking to students about it at the beginning and, later as needed, weirdly helps a lot on its own. I think that's because students are often very receptive if you make it clear to them that you will treat them like adults, but that requires reciprocal obligations.

That's why things like locking the door send the wrong message. People sometimes are late to routine appointments. On the last day of class this semester, I got out of the house a little later than normal. I would have made it to class in plenty of time, but I inexplicably drove past my exit and ended up being ten minutes late to class. I was once sitting in my office and suddenly my colleague down the hall yelled "oh sh#@" and ran past me and down the hall. They explained later that they were prepping for class like normal and then looked at the clock and realized class had started five minutes ago.

It isn't that responsible, considerate adults are never late to something for no good reason, or never have to leave the room during a meeting. They just do things to minimize this stuff as much as possible.

[mahagonny]

I have noticed this (strange and distracting) pattern for a few years now, but I don't make rules about these situations because I can't know what's going on with the students. I do try to open with some sort of activity that begins right at the start of class rather than beginning with lecture. Then I try to use that activity in the lecture. I also try to switch things up every 15-20 minutes, but our classes are usually 1.5 or 2 hrs long. And our institution moved from 8am start to 8:30, not that I'm sure that's helped anything.

... who shut the door at exactly the minute the class was to begin, and the door stayed locked. You could not be late.

Whatever you do, Mahagonny, do not lock the doors! After all, in spite of some similarities, we are not prison guards.

A generation ago I had a colleague who did just as your colleague  --  locked the doors. The students already hated him for the subject we teach and for the personal asshole he was. The locked doors gave them a third reason to hate him.

Some suggestions in the thread above look very good. Having b-room and telephone breaks is one of the best. One can be stricter outside break time.

Look, we can't change the culture; we can only adapt to it in such wise as to minimize the cost to serious students. Tradeoffs wherever we look.

It sounds like at least two people may be noticing an increase in the leaving-in-the-middle-of-class trend. I wonder what that is about. Bladders haven't changed; neither have (sorry to be graphic) menstrual cycles. Attitude change, probably. A lot of my colleagues think the current generation are 'self-entitled.' 
The student that I scolded for habitual lateness tried to deny it until I opened my attendance book. then she confessed that she needs to get better organized. But I suspect some students are just saying the right thing, without the intent.
Our class has a performance aspect. So you can't make up for missed class time by going online, not easily. And if you're lazy to begin with, well...

[OneMoreYear]

I have colleagues who use a version of the locked door policy.  The door is "shut" at the start of class; students who are late can come in at the 1st break. The door is not locked, so I'm not sure if they ever have students come in anyway, but that is the way the syllabus is written. Other colleagues allow students to join late up to a certain point (e.g., if you are more than 15 minutes late, you can't join). Other colleagues track tardies and have reductions in course grade if students are late too many times.

It just seems very micromanaging to me, and a little like high school. Like Caracal said, there are a variety of understandable reasons why adults will be late occasionally (e.g., traffic, the baby-sitter is late, bad weather). As long as students are not disruptive when they join and don't expect them to re-teach something they missed, then I don't have a problem.