Favorite student emails

[ciao_yall]

In what universe is it acceptable to require college kids, many of whom (esp at this sort of place) to be 'advised' by people who, ahem, well, errr... have no business being advisors themselves?  

As others have pointed out, most of what advisors do is just bookkeeping; checking to see that students have checked the required boxes for their program. It doesn't take subject-area knowledge.

And how hard would it be to have, say, at the beginning of any given semester, each prof in an upper-level major class to run through all the students (or, if too large, to have the profs split up the students across all the classes), look quickly at their transcripts, and say, esp to seniors, 'lookee here, you need, right now, to sign up for course x, or you will not be able to graduate this semester)?

That is a perfect example of why it doesn't require faculty; it just requires someone who can follow instructions ("2 courses from Category A; 3 courses from Category B", etc.).

The one place faculty are required is for transfer students. In the past I've been called in to determine whether a student from OtherU with a course "Fabric Containers 221" meets the requirement at MarshU for "Cloth Baskets 321". But that doesn't involve meeting with students, and it's usually done when they transfer, and a note is put in their transcript so in future anyone can clearly tell that they have the credit.

Also, many (most?) programs tend to have clearly laid-out sample schedules suggesting what courses students are expected to take each semester in order to graduate in the normal time. Students who follow this won't need extra advice, and students who transfer in, fail courses, or otherwise deviate from the schedule should be talking to an advisor at the time they make the deviation to chart their new path.Once they've done that, as long as they stick to it, they don't need any more advising. If they deviate from that path, the process repeats.

It is condescending, as well as a huge waste of time and resources, to have people proactively looking over students' shoulders to herd them to success in spite of themselves.

Where counseling is important is dispelling rumors students hear, answering questions, and if a student wants to change majors, what is the most graceful and efficient way of helping the student achieve their goals.

Students often need someone to talk to about college, careers, majors, what-ifs, and counselors are very important for that. The proactive "check-the-box" meeting is really about making sure the student is staying on track, rather than waiting for them to get into trouble.

[marshwiggle]

Where counseling is important is dispelling rumors students hear, answering questions, and if a student wants to change majors, what is the most graceful and efficient way of helping the student achieve their goals.

I'm not sure how many "rumors" the average student needs to have dispelled, but certainly advice about changing majors is very much on point.

Students often need someone to talk to about college, careers, majors, what-ifs, and counselors are very important for that. The proactive "check-the-box" meeting is really about making sure the student is staying on track, rather than waiting for them to get into trouble.

If the student has taken and passed all of the recommended courses to date, with a decent average, and is registered for the recommended courses for the next semester or year, a "proactive 'check-the-box' meeting" is a waste of time. By definition, such a student is staying on track and doesn't need a meeting just for someone to state the obvious.

[mythbuster]

Busting the rumors is critical!

I will give you a current example in my department. We are currently in the faculty discussion stage of revising a core course in our major. Apparently a faculty member mentioned this to a student- who heard that core course is being eliminated! So now we have a bunch of students who are planning on skipping core course- even though it's a pre-req to almost everything in our department!

That rumor needs to be busted and fast to prevent total curricular chaos.

[kaysixteen]

Read the riot act to the idiot colleague who misinformed the kid.

I get that computer programs, 23yo office flunkies, etc., can do the mere box checking aspect of advising.  But these things cannot do real, ahem, academic *advising*, the sort of thing many folks here have already alluded to.  A real discipline-specific professor can, and should.  S/he can look at the kid's transcripts and not only ascertain what courses still need taking, but also engage in convos with the kid wrt his plans for the future, what direction he wants to take, etc., and give  real, substantive, and *useful* advice.   I never would have signed up for German 101 as a junior had my classics dept faculty advisor not urged me to do so, when he realized my classics grad school plans were serious, as he noted that I would absolutely positively need to know German then (perhaps this is *somewhat* less true in the 2020s than in the 1980s, but not by much)-- this gave me five semesters' head-start at really learning it, and allowed me to win a German govt DAAD fellowship to  study at a uni language program there the summer right after I graduated.  I could give many examples like this, not only for myself, but for others.   And this sort of real faculty advising also alloweth the development of real mentoring relationships between fac and majors.

[apl68]

I'm not sure it was the colleague's fault.  People have an amazing ability to hear something entirely different from what you're trying to tell them.  I've seen it happen many times.  In the case mythbuster mentions (And who better to go around busting rumors, by the way?), the students' supposition that they will no longer have to worry about certain core courses may be a case of wishful thinking.  Wishful thinking can really amplify rumors sometimes.

I'm with kay in principle that strong faculty advising is the ideal.  But realistically, at most schools I would suppose that faculty are spread too thin to be able to advise everybody.  So they get staff members to help them check the boxes on their standardized major paths--which is probably what most students think college is all about anyway.

[quasihumanist]

Faculty advisors are good for actual students.

However, when I was an undergraduate faculty advisor, 75% of my students weren't interested in anything.  If I asked them what aspects of their courses they had found interesting, they looked at me like I had two heads, as if anyone could be actually interested in anything in their courses.  They just wanted to know how to get their boxes checked to graduate, preferably with the least amount of work on their part possible.
 

Read the riot act to the idiot colleague who misinformed the kid.

I get that computer programs, 23yo office flunkies, etc., can do the mere box checking aspect of advising.  But these things cannot do real, ahem, academic *advising*, the sort of thing many folks here have already alluded to.  A real discipline-specific professor can, and should.  S/he can look at the kid's transcripts and not only ascertain what courses still need taking, but also engage in convos with the kid wrt his plans for the future, what direction he wants to take, etc., and give  real, substantive, and *useful* advice.   I never would have signed up for German 101 as a junior had my classics dept faculty advisor not urged me to do so, when he realized my classics grad school plans were serious, as he noted that I would absolutely positively need to know German then (perhaps this is *somewhat* less true in the 2020s than in the 1980s, but not by much)-- this gave me five semesters' head-start at really learning it, and allowed me to win a German govt DAAD fellowship to  study at a uni language program there the summer right after I graduated.  I could give many examples like this, not only for myself, but for others.   And this sort of real faculty advising also alloweth the development of real mentoring relationships between fac and majors.

[Parasaurolophus]

Oh, great. One of my ChatGPTers has been emailing me all weekend and I haven't responded because I tell them that I don't work on weekends (not quite true, but true enough so far as they're concerned) and we've not reached the point of all-caps "FOR MY LIFE AND MY PARENTS' LIFE".

The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.

Also, this student "needs" 90%+ in "my" class to avoid academic probation. Mmhmm. You were doing so well that you thought you needed to use ChatGPT. You were totally going to get 90%+.

[Puget]

The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.

If that's not 100% clear, I'd go ahead and escalate this to whatever the proper place is there (here we call it the "care team"). Better safe than sorry (failure and resulting shame and guilt really is a major suicide risk factor, especially if there is family pressure and cultural values around not shaming the family at play), and even if the student is actually fine and just being entitled and obnoxious about it, you have a paper trail of expressing concern for them.

[marshwiggle]

Oh, great. One of my ChatGPTers has been emailing me all weekend and I haven't responded because I tell them that I don't work on weekends (not quite true, but true enough so far as they're concerned) and we've not reached the point of all-caps "FOR MY LIFE AND MY PARENTS' LIFE".

The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.

Also, this student "needs" 90%+ in "my" class to avoid academic probation. Mmhmm. You were doing so well that you thought you needed to use ChatGPT. You were totally going to get 90%+.

This makes me feel the need to repost a classic:

The Dead Grandmother/Exam Syndrome

[the_geneticist]

The English is pretty garbled, but I think it's about long-term plans for the future (i.e. level of debt + work permit) rather than suicide.

If that's not 100% clear, I'd go ahead and escalate this to whatever the proper place is there (here we call it the "care team"). Better safe than sorry (failure and resulting shame and guilt really is a major suicide risk factor, especially if there is family pressure and cultural values around not shaming the family at play), and even if the student is actually fine and just being entitled and obnoxious about it, you have a paper trail of expressing concern for them.

I second the vote to escalate it quickly due to the threat of self-harm.  If they are in a crisis, you'll be getting them the help they need.  If they are being overly dramatic & not actually in danger, they'll get a wake up call that their behavior is not appropriate.

[the_geneticist]

Got one today:

Dr. [Geneticist]
I was wondering if there will be some kind of curve to the final exam, maybe something about adding some extra points based on the class average. If there is anything like that or if my assumption is wrong, let me know as soon as you can.

Thank you for looking at my email
Very Anxious Student

Stu is very polite, but does not need to worry.  Stu has an A+ in the class.  They could get a C on the final and still get an A in the class.


Their classmates who need to worry are the ones who need to get an A on the final to get a C in the class.

[kaysixteen]

Ok.   Will you perhaps however consider replying to Stu, telling him about the inappropriateness of his request?

[apl68]

Got one today:

Dr. [Geneticist]
I was wondering if there will be some kind of curve to the final exam, maybe something about adding some extra points based on the class average. If there is anything like that or if my assumption is wrong, let me know as soon as you can.

Thank you for looking at my email
Very Anxious Student

Stu is very polite, but does not need to worry.  Stu has an A+ in the class.  They could get a C on the final and still get an A in the class.


Their classmates who need to worry are the ones who need to get an A on the final to get a C in the class.

Falls into the category of "the worried well," I guess.  Some conscientious, imposter-syndrome-ridden students really do worry that much.  I know I did.  I came away from my GRE fearing that I'd bombed it, and was subsequently informed that I'd gotten the highest GRE score that any major in the department had yet made.  Mind you, that might not have been saying too much for all I know....

[the_geneticist]

Ok.   Will you perhaps however consider replying to Stu, telling him about the inappropriateness of his request?

I wrote back to say that the grade cut-offs were in the syllabus. It was an honest question & deserves an answer.  It's not inappropriate to ask if I would be doing a curve* (which students really don't understand), it's inappropriate to demand that I do so.


*The students want to know if we will be lowering the threshold for what counts as a A- vs B+.  Plus, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that grades should follow a normal bellcurve.  Grades are earned individually & everyone has the opportunity to earn all the points in my classes.

[AmLitHist]

*The students want to know if we will be lowering the threshold for what counts as a A- vs B+.  Plus, I fundamentally disagree with the idea that grades should follow a normal bellcurve.  Grades are earned individually & everyone has the opportunity to earn all the points in my classes.

^ This, x 1,000.