How are you feeling about the state of American democracy?

[marshwiggle]

The Republicans have Fascists among them. Yet people don't say that makes them unelectable.

It's fine for a party to include a wide range of opinion.

I am curious as to why in the US, democratic socialism is more scary than fascism.

Cuba, China, and North Korea are examples of communism. ( "Socialism" is the term communists use to describe themselves. Most of the countries Americans mean when they say "socialist" are actual social democracies, NOT socialist.) What examples do people have of an existing fascist government? Russia?

[Wahoo Redux]

Lose in a democratic election? The point is that they may be a thing of the past.

Aside from the hyperbole, this misses the point I was making:

According to Gallup, in 2021, percentages of American voters:

• Republican 31%
• Democrat 27%
• Independent 41%

For either party to win, they have to win a majority of independents. If they lose, it's because they didn't appeal to enough independents. APPEALING TO MODERATES IS THE WAY FORWARD FOR EVERYONE. Catering to the extremists on either end is not a winning strategy.

Moving to the centre makes it much easier for a party to win by enough votes to avoid all kinds of whining from the other side. Contested elections are the result of parties catering more to their fringes than to the mainstream voters.

Marshy, I gotta say, I am appreciating your commentary these days. 

ALL POWER TO THE MODERATES!!!!

[Sun_Worshiper]

You're making a point about electoral politics - winning elections by appealing to moderates - and that is a fine point that I mostly agree with. But that is not the focus of this thread or of my post, which are focused on the ongoing attacks on the democratic system. If the democratic system is effectively undermined or dismantled, then playing to moderates or giving a forward looking message won't matter. That is the issue here.

But that's exactly the point; what undermines the democratic system is people from different parties trying to focus on what divides people rather than on what unites them.  The more parties spend their time on actions for which there is broad consensus, the safer the system is. If one party doesn't want to do this, then they will ultimately lose to the party more willing to do this.

There are many things that undermine democracy. I am happy to agree that one thing is a lack of bipartisan cooperation. However, the most direct and immediate threat to the US democratic system is Republicans having attempted to overthrow the results of a free and fair election, and ongoing steps to make that attempt successful next time. Democracy is holding and respecting free and fair elections, and Republicans are attacking that at this moment. This is not the past, it is the present. It is not a partisan issue that we requires compromise or that we should ignore because it divides people, it is a reality that is verified by reporting and by the admission of the very conspirators that tried to carry this out.

You seem unwilling to engage with this, and instead keep going back to a general statement of "both sides should do better." We agree that both sides should do better on many things, but in this case there it is one side (the Republicans) that are attacking the infrastructure of democracy. If you refuse to engage on this point, then then you are choosing to ignore the most crucial and immediate threat to democracy in America.

[downer]

I've never heard of a Democrat who wasn't a moderate.

None of them in the last 40 years has yet proposed nationalizing the major industries or abolishing inheritance and private education. They don't even propose depriving churches of their tax-exempt status.

[dismalist]

Democracy is holding and respecting free and fair elections, and Republicans are attacking that at this moment.

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Republicans questioning vote counts after the 2020 election wound up in court. Republicans won no cases, even before judges appointed by Republicans. They were peaceably resolved. War of words.

Trump calling: Find more votes. That's what politicians do when they're on the losing side!

Republicans voting against certification of the Electoral College numbers. Well! Only in 2017 did some Democrats try the same. Turned out they hadn't read the rules. VP Joe Biden, then presiding, had the sense to admonish one with: It's over! Pure posturing. Just woids.

[Changing voting eligibility? That's not just woids. Both sides wish to do that. But that's normal.]

Alas, there is nothing to get excited about.

[mahagonny]

Democracy is holding and respecting free and fair elections, and Republicans are attacking that at this moment.

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Republicans questioning vote counts after the 2020 election wound up in court. Republicans won no cases, even before judges appointed by Republicans. They were peaceably resolved. War of words.

Trump calling: Find more votes. That's what politicians do when they're on the losing side!

Republicans voting against certification of the Electoral College numbers. Well! Only in 2017 did some Democrats try the same. Turned out they hadn't read the rules. VP Joe Biden, then presiding, had the sense to admonish one with: It's over! Pure posturing. Just woids.

[Changing voting eligibility? That's not just woids. Both sides wish to do that. But that's normal.]

Alas, there is nothing to get excited about.

In NYC illegal aliens can elect a mayor now. 

I suspect the 2022 red wave wipeout will be so pronounced there won't be much bickering.

ETA:

This is kind of crap the democrats are writing, and the public isn't buying it; i.e. 'you accept exactly what we propose for districting, etc. or you are intentionally subverting democracy.' There's no recognition that it's a conflict of interests and there are two sides. That's what the lie is. I am not aware of any law stating that the African American vote has to be consolidated for maximum effect or it's voter suppression and subverting democracy.
Racist! Racist! is just so tired.
I notice they've referred to CRT without using the term. Shrewd!
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/01/08/georgia-republicans-are-scheming-to-subvert-the-will-of-voters/

Wake-up call to democrats: teacher's unions are rapidly becoming public enemy number one. Time to get your special ass dressed, get out the door, go to school and teach the kids in the room like they're paying for. Life involves risk, folks.
https://wirepoints.org/six-sources-of-chicago-teachers-union-power/

[jimbogumbo]

Democracy is holding and respecting free and fair elections, and Republicans are attacking that at this moment.

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Republicans questioning vote counts after the 2020 election wound up in court. Republicans won no cases, even before judges appointed by Republicans. They were peaceably resolved. War of words.

Trump calling: Find more votes. That's what politicians do when they're on the losing side!

Republicans voting against certification of the Electoral College numbers. Well! Only in 2017 did some Democrats try the same. Turned out they hadn't read the rules. VP Joe Biden, then presiding, had the sense to admonish one with: It's over! Pure posturing. Just woids.

[Changing voting eligibility? That's not just woids. Both sides wish to do that. But that's normal.]

Alas, there is nothing to get excited about.

In NYC illegal aliens can elect a mayor now. 

I suspect the 2022 red wave wipeout will be so pronounced there won't be much bickering.

ETA:

This is kind of crap the democrats are writing, and the public isn't buying it; i.e. 'you accept exactly what we propose for districting, etc. or you are intentionally subverting democracy.' There's no recognition that it's a conflict of interests and there are two sides. That's what the lie is. I am not aware of any law stating that the African American vote has to be consolidated for maximum effect or it's voter suppression and subverting democracy.
Racist! Racist! is just so tired.
I notice they've referred to CRT without using the term. Shrewd!
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/01/08/georgia-republicans-are-scheming-to-subvert-the-will-of-voters/

Wake-up call to democrats: teacher's unions are rapidly becoming public enemy number one. Time to get your special ass dressed, get out the door, go to school and teach the kids in the room like they're paying for. Life involves risk, folks.
https://wirepoints.org/six-sources-of-chicago-teachers-union-power/

Perhaps this will help:https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11618

[marshwiggle]

There are many things that undermine democracy. I am happy to agree that one thing is a lack of bipartisan cooperation. However, the most direct and immediate threat to the US democratic system is Republicans having attempted to overthrow the results of a free and fair election, and ongoing steps to make that attempt successful next time.

68% percent of Americans (i.e. a strong majority) think the election was fair. MOVE ON!
Most Americans think closed borders (i.e. no immigration) and open borders are both crazy. MOVE ON!
Most Americans think "defunding the police" is a dumb idea. MOVE ON!
Most Americans believe that people who say "climate change is a myth" and those who say "quit fossil fuels today" are both nuts. MOVE ON!


It's a totally senseless waste of time to endlessly try to convince an entrenched minority about what they "should" think when the majority already accept something reasonable.

Common sense positions on all kinds of issues could be easily established if people would just tell the shrill extremists, including (especially) those on "their own side" that they're out of touch with reality.

One of the things I liked about Obama when he was president was his refusal to go to extremes on all kinds of issues. Sadly, it seems he's gone more partisan and woke since then. (To be fair, some of that was no doubt a response to Trump, but it's still regrettable.)

[dismalist]

One of the things I liked about Obama when he was president was his refusal to go to extremes on all kinds of issues. Sadly, it seems he's gone more partisan and woke since then.

He's no longer President. He can afford to move further away from the median.

It is a real puzzle to me how the Democrats are acting, bowing to their own left.

I'm guessing the median voter is different over issues and it's hard for the Democrats to put together a package for him or her without alienating their own committed  nut jobs. They're afraid, for good reason. Take, e.g., the VA election of 2021: Teachers' unions are all Democratic, but the Democratic parent voters in the  'burbs went against the educational establishment!

Hence, all the hubbub about the Republic going down the tubes, as it's the only thing they can agree upon.

The Democrats need Trump more than the Republicans do! :-)

[Ruralguy]

Well, you could probably run with "both parties need Trump" and make a good case of it, or "neither of them really need him, so just move on and let the voters decide on the issues." I'm more inclined to hope for the latter, though I doubt that "the issues" which will be focused on will satisfy me much (there will still be plenty of culture war and cries of socialism, etc.).

My guess as to why many establishment Democrats would rather try to satisfy the left of their party than the right is because they see that the left are young and from urban areas in traditional blue states. The right tend to be older (though not by a lot, unless they are senators) and from redder/purpler areas. There's more of a chance the latter and not the former will be picked off in the next election. Of course the establishment could side more with the party's right and help save them, but I sense many think that its a lost cause for now.  I personally don't think so, but perhaps Pelosi and others do.

[mahagonny]

Democracy is holding and respecting free and fair elections, and Republicans are attacking that at this moment.

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Republicans questioning vote counts after the 2020 election wound up in court. Republicans won no cases, even before judges appointed by Republicans. They were peaceably resolved. War of words.

Trump calling: Find more votes. That's what politicians do when they're on the losing side!

Republicans voting against certification of the Electoral College numbers. Well! Only in 2017 did some Democrats try the same. Turned out they hadn't read the rules. VP Joe Biden, then presiding, had the sense to admonish one with: It's over! Pure posturing. Just woids.

[Changing voting eligibility? That's not just woids. Both sides wish to do that. But that's normal.]

Alas, there is nothing to get excited about.

In NYC illegal aliens can elect a mayor now. 

I suspect the 2022 red wave wipeout will be so pronounced there won't be much bickering.

ETA:

This is kind of crap the democrats are writing, and the public isn't buying it; i.e. 'you accept exactly what we propose for districting, etc. or you are intentionally subverting democracy.' There's no recognition that it's a conflict of interests and there are two sides. That's what the lie is. I am not aware of any law stating that the African American vote has to be consolidated for maximum effect or it's voter suppression and subverting democracy.
Racist! Racist! is just so tired.
I notice they've referred to CRT without using the term. Shrewd!
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2022/01/08/georgia-republicans-are-scheming-to-subvert-the-will-of-voters/

Wake-up call to democrats: teacher's unions are rapidly becoming public enemy number one. Time to get your special ass dressed, get out the door, go to school and teach the kids in the room like they're paying for. Life involves risk, folks.
https://wirepoints.org/six-sources-of-chicago-teachers-union-power/

Perhaps this will help:https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11618

Yes. Thank you.

One of the things I liked about Obama when he was president was his refusal to go to extremes on all kinds of issues. Sadly, it seems he's gone more partisan and woke since then.

He's no longer President. He can afford to move further away from the median.

It is a real puzzle to me how the Democrats are acting, bowing to their own left.

Only thing I can figure is that so many of their issues are a litmus test for a person establishing that they are not a bigot. So they've painted themselves into a corner. They have bullied themselves into submission.

[pgher]

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Yes, all politicians act in their own self-interest. Only one group attempted to physically attack the democratic process itself.

[dismalist]

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Yes, all politicians act in their own self-interest. Only one group attempted to physically attack the democratic process itself.

I think that's all the Democrats have, and I don't think it mattered for the system. The system worked well, as explicated above.

Everyone is free to make more of Jan 6, 2021 than I do. I merely suspect that dwelling on it is preaching to the choir.

The message I get is: Republicans bad. Oh my god, what news!

[pgher]

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Yes, all politicians act in their own self-interest. Only one group attempted to physically attack the democratic process itself.

I think that's all the Democrats have, and I don't think it mattered for the system. The system worked well, as explicated above.

Everyone is free to make more of Jan 6, 2021 than I do. I merely suspect that dwelling on it is preaching to the choir.

The message I get is: Republicans bad. Oh my god, what news!

A response that I would have welcomed, and that would have changed my opinion of the Republican party, is if the prevailing sentiment that week (speeches by McConnell and Graham, for example) had morphed into a repudiation of political violence and an affirmation of the importance of following the unwritten rules of democracy. What we got instead was a quick about-face and return to the pattern of behavior that led to Jan. 6.

[dismalist]

With the exception of the moronic storming of the Capitol, all this is words, not deeds. And that event will forgotten sooner, not later.

Other than that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?

Yes, all politicians act in their own self-interest. Only one group attempted to physically attack the democratic process itself.

I think that's all the Democrats have, and I don't think it mattered for the system. The system worked well, as explicated above.

Everyone is free to make more of Jan 6, 2021 than I do. I merely suspect that dwelling on it is preaching to the choir.

The message I get is: Republicans bad. Oh my god, what news!

A response that I would have welcomed, and that would have changed my opinion of the Republican party, is if the prevailing sentiment that week (speeches by McConnell and Graham, for example) had morphed into a repudiation of political violence and an affirmation of the importance of following the unwritten rules of democracy. What we got instead was a quick about-face and return to the pattern of behavior that led to Jan. 6.

I guess some people don't like the Republican party. No need to change one's opinion.