Professor Votes With His Feet

[Wahoo Redux]

Or you could just quote Peterson directly. He's got deep views of women, for example:

women have a subconscious wish for brutal male domination

it's unfortunate that men can't control women who say crazy things because they aren't allowed to hit them

young women are outraged because they don't have a baby to suckle

if a woman doesn't want to have kids, there's something wrong with her

What a hero!

He is an interesting demonstration of the fact that bigotries are not necessarily a correlation of low intelligence or lack of exposure to the world.

[Parasaurolophus]

Clear example of a lie, please? I'm getting it that you don't like his views, but that's not what the thread was supposed to be for.

There's the first sentence of his editorial, for a start: he retired, he didn't resign.

Alternately, you could consider the things that brought him to prominence: his opposition to §46.3 of the OHC and Bill C-16. The most charitable interpretation there is that he's willfully lying to serve his own interests, although I'll concede that it's entirely possible that he's an abject moron instead.

It's not just that I don't like his views, although that's true. It's that he's peddling garbage and calling it scholarship. And he's also causing harm with his clinical "practice", which violates a number of standards of care.

I don't like the content of your views either, or marshwiggle's, but I assume--correctly, I think--that the scholarship you both produce is real and not just transparent garbage that's either a hundred years out of date or entirely made up.

His platform is loud now, but if liberal academia had its way he'd have none, as we can see from Para's posts.

He can have an academic platform for actual scholarship. It's not my fault he produces none.

[mahagonny]

Oh, that wouldn't be news. On the forum recently we discussed one Brittany Cooper who is only one of many bigots of a certain type that have become a specialty of higher education in the USA. and darlings of the left media, pro sports, Hollywood, corporate management.

Or you could just quote Peterson directly. He's got deep views of women, for example:

women have a subconscious wish for brutal male domination

it's unfortunate that men can't control women who say crazy things because they aren't allowed to hit them

young women are outraged because they don't have a baby to suckle

if a woman doesn't want to have kids, there's something wrong with her

What a hero!

He is an interesting demonstration of the fact that bigotries are not necessarily a correlation of low intelligence or lack of exposure to the world.

[Sun_Worshiper]

Good for him for leaving a situation that obviously brings him great stress and grief. I'm sure he'll be happier doing his motivational videos and podcast appearances. In terms of his quit-blog, I'm sure he believes all this stuff deeply, but these sweeping assertions (not supported by accompanying data) he is making about academic life and hiring seem like overstatements and overgeneralizations.

I do buy that his grad students could be suffering on the job market because of their affiliation with him, although I wonder how good/modern the training he provides really is, given that he hasn't done any real research in years.

[Parasaurolophus]

It's hard enough for him to write coherently at the best of times, so I imagine the letters of recommendation he wrote from his medically-induced coma in Russia (to "treat" his benzo addiction) did no one any favours.

[mahagonny]

It's hard enough for him to write coherently at the best of times, so I imagine the letters of recommendation he wrote from his medically-induced coma in Russia (to "treat" his benzo addiction) did no one any favours.

Next time you're down remind me to kick you.

[Parasaurolophus]

It's hard enough for him to write coherently at the best of times, so I imagine the letters of recommendation he wrote from his medically-induced coma in Russia (to "treat" his benzo addiction) did no one any favours.

Next time you're down remind me to kick you.

Next time I'm down I won't blame an amorphous other for the consequences of my own failures.

The facts--his students (if he has any) are under-prepared, under-supervised, and under-served by his letters--don't care about his feelings.

[mahagonny]

It's hard enough for him to write coherently at the best of times, so I imagine the letters of recommendation he wrote from his medically-induced coma in Russia (to "treat" his benzo addiction) did no one any favours.

Next time you're down remind me to kick you.

Next time I'm down I won't blame an amorphous other for the consequences of my own failures.

I expect that will vary according to who's telling the story. If it's your friend, he'll say something like you happened on an unscrupulous physician who freely prescribed klonopin for everything. If it's someone who hates you, you'll get the same treatment you're giving Peterson. Don't bullshit. We know how people are.

[Parasaurolophus]

I'm blaming him for his students' lack of success on the market. He blames women, queer people, and non-white people.

That's the difference. When I'm a shitty supervisor, I'll own up to it rather than punch down to straw men.

[mahagonny]

I do buy that his grad students could be suffering on the job market because of their affiliation with him, although I wonder how good/modern the training he provides really is, given that he hasn't done any real research in years.

My school's DEI staff have been doing some training that's, like real modern.
ETA: Ideas are not automatically good because they have been either recently developed or in fashion.

Para: The DEI lunacy is only big time now because thousands of groovy white academic people support it. The tenure track is a pretty white place. Peterson rails against them as much as he does anyone. The idiotic ideas are the problem.

[Parasaurolophus]

The idiotic ideas are the problem.

Yes. Idiotic ideas like his decontextualized Jungian-Campbellite stream-of-consciousness nonsense.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do buy that his grad students could be suffering on the job market because of their affiliation with him, although I wonder how good/modern the training he provides really is, given that he hasn't done any real research in years.

My school's DEI staff have been doing some training that's, like real modern.
ETA: Ideas are not automatically good because they have been either recently developed or in fashion.

I never said that they are, but one cannot publish in top journals without serious methods training and an understanding of the current debates in the academic journals. I don't know about Peterson's field, his research profile, or his engagement with the literature, so not going to say he doesn't train students well, but in general celebrity advisors who write self help books and podcast all day aren't going to be very effective at getting their students up to par. It doesn't help that lots of people are put off by Peterson's philosophy, but if his grads have top pubs they will get hired regardless.

[mahagonny]

I do buy that his grad students could be suffering on the job market because of their affiliation with him, although I wonder how good/modern the training he provides really is, given that he hasn't done any real research in years.

My school's DEI staff have been doing some training that's, like real modern.
ETA: Ideas are not automatically good because they have been either recently developed or in fashion.

I never said that they are, but one cannot publish in top journals without serious methods training and an understanding of the current debates in the academic journals. I don't know about Peterson's field, his research profile, or his engagement with the literature, so not going to say he doesn't train students well, but in general celebrity advisors who write self help books and podcast all day aren't going to be very effective at getting their students up to par. It doesn't help that lots of people are put off by Peterson's philosophy, but if his grads have top pubs they will get hired regardless.

Your stern look at the responsibilities of deeply tenured star academics should be bad news for Ibram X. Kendi. He might want to cut back on his schedule of moonlighting spiritual cleansing exercises for hopelessly racist cashiers working at CVS, for example. We're going to hear a lot of protests from academics like yourself who are worried that his students aren't getting enough attention, any minute now, aren't we? Heh heh.

ETA: then again, Jordan Peterson had the lack of imagination and tactics to join an actual academic field, clinical psychology I believe it is. Whereas Kendi found a way around that. The 'field' of 'antiracism.' Just make up your own field, no history, no rigor, no serious thinkers for one to be compared to, no feet getting held to the fire. Anything goes. Well played sir!
Reminds me, That old spy spoof show, 'Get Smart' had a similar self-validating scheme: international counter-espionage was unchallengeable, being dedicated to the cause of 'niceness.'

[not sarcasm]
As well, it surprises me that people like yourself who are so capable of holding people's feet the fire don't generally have anything to say to challenge the sweeping generalizations regularly churned out by DEI staff. If they are part of university culture, why shouldn't they be held to standards?  Not to mention rock stars like Kendi who turn out to be total lightweights.

(aside: when I use the term 'rock star' it's not a compliment)

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do buy that his grad students could be suffering on the job market because of their affiliation with him, although I wonder how good/modern the training he provides really is, given that he hasn't done any real research in years.

My school's DEI staff have been doing some training that's, like real modern.
ETA: Ideas are not automatically good because they have been either recently developed or in fashion.

I never said that they are, but one cannot publish in top journals without serious methods training and an understanding of the current debates in the academic journals. I don't know about Peterson's field, his research profile, or his engagement with the literature, so not going to say he doesn't train students well, but in general celebrity advisors who write self help books and podcast all day aren't going to be very effective at getting their students up to par. It doesn't help that lots of people are put off by Peterson's philosophy, but if his grads have top pubs they will get hired regardless.

Your stern look at the responsibilities of deeply tenured star academics should be bad news for Ibram X. Kendi. He might want to cut back on his schedule of moonlighting spiritual cleansing exercises for hopelessly racist cashiers working at CVS, for example. We're going to hear a lot of protests from academics like yourself who are worried that his students aren't getting enough attention, any minute now, aren't we? Heh heh.

ETA: then again, Jordan Peterson had the lack of imagination and tactics to join an actual academic field, clinical psychology I believe it is. Whereas Kendi found a way around that. The 'field' of 'antiracism.' Just make up your own field, no history, no rigor, no serious thinkers for one to be compared to, no feet getting held to the fire. Anything goes. Well played sir!
Reminds me, That old spy spoof show, 'Get Smart' had a similar self-validating scheme: international counter-espionage was unchallengeable, being dedicated to the cause of 'niceness.'

[not sarcasm]
As well, it surprises me that people like yourself who are so capable of holding people's feet the fire don't generally have anything to say to challenge the sweeping generalizations regularly churned out by DEI staff. If they are part of university culture, why shouldn't they be held to standards?  Not to mention rock stars like Kendi who turn out to be total lightweights.

(aside: when I use the term 'rock star' it's not a compliment)

This thread - which you posted for us to respond to - is about Jordan Peterson and his letter explaining why he quit, so I'm reacting to your OP by pointing out what is obviously true: That he makes sweeping generalizations about academic hiring, applying to grants, etc., and instead of supporting these claims with data or evidence he says "this has been common knowledge among any remotely truthful academic who has served on a hiring committee for the last three decades." If this Kendi person that you are so obsessed with writes a blog with a bunch of assertions about academic life and backs these assertions up by saying "everyone knows this is true," then I'll be happy to say that it is not convincing. Same for DEI staff - who apparently dominate your institution, but are nowhere to be seen at my public in the US.

In any case, the part of my post that you quoted and are apparently responding to is not about Jordan Peterson's quit blog and it holds regardless of whether we're talking about a celebrity academic on the right or on the left: If the advisor is too busy being a celebrity to do the real work of advising students on how to publish in top academic venues, then their students are going to struggle on the job market. There are some celebrity-type academics in my department (obv not on the level of Jordon Peterson) and they are valuable members of the team, but they don't generally have the time, interest, or technical skills to mentor students to publish in top academic journals. I would discourage a PhD student from working with these folks, unless they want to go into the think tank world.

[mahagonny]

Sun Worshiper posted:

This thread - which you posted for us to respond to - is about Jordan Peterson and his letter explaining why he quit, so I'm reacting to your OP by pointing out what is obviously true: That he makes sweeping generalizations about academic hiring, applying to grants, etc., and instead of supporting these claims with data or evidence he says "this has been common knowledge among any remotely truthful academic who has served on a hiring committee for the last three decades."

Mahag replies:

Where is your evidence for this claim, then:

It doesn't help that lots of people are put off by Peterson's philosophy, but if his grads have top pubs they will get hired regardless.

to wit,

No one seems to dispute that this is going on:

"All my craven colleagues must craft DIE statements to obtain a research grant." -- Dr. Peterson

So I'll submit: if your claim (my bolding) is correct, a scholar applying for a grant should be able to state 'I sincerely hope, in the interest of viewpoint diversity/inclusion, that the currently held nonsense being spewed by DEI departments across our land gets some serious clock cleaning in the immediate future,; as well, I fervently hope we will be able to hear much more from the conservative faction (particularly the outstanding young, Black thinkers) their measured, well supported logical repudiation of today's democratic party platform and its racist treatment of BIPOC voters and the calamitous effects on their rates of success and health over decades resulting from that party's implausible victimhood/oppressor worldview, a worldview that unfortunately has recently dominated our American media, academic and entertainment culture today despite its unpopularity'   and still get the grant, as long as they meet the requirement of having recently published in the quality journals.'

...or some such broadside against the well-known monochromatic DEI rhetoric in our midst. They could probably state it better than me. (I'm just a trade school educated, adjunct artist -- academic also ran)

There is much reason to doubt it.