Supreme Court Draft Opinion on Abortion Rights

[jimbogumbo]

From Wikipedia. These four voted against Obergefell: Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito each wrote a separate dissenting opinion. The Chief Justice read part of his dissenting opinion from the bench, his first time doing so since joining the Court in 2005.[114][115]

If you don't think Scalia will be replaced by two to three of the new Justices you indeed live in a dream world.

[dismalist]

From Wikipedia. These four voted against Obergefell: Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia, Thomas, and Alito each wrote a separate dissenting opinion. The Chief Justice read part of his dissenting opinion from the bench, his first time doing so since joining the Court in 2005.[114][115]

If you don't think Scalia will be replaced by two to three of the new Justices you indeed live in a dream world.

Well, different worlds, jimbogumbo.

I am happy to read the dissenting opinions [please link], but I don't think there is a big problem, as the current draft essentially says Amendment Nine.

I'm a Niner, actually.

Also, one has to be able to distinguish one's friends from one's opponents.

[jimbogumbo]

Agreed. BTW, in my world one can be both a friend and an opponent:)

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

[dismalist]

Agreed. BTW, in my world one can be both a friend and an opponent:)

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

Thank you, jimbojumbo.

I like the dissent. Here's a paragraph:

Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not
about whether, in my judgment, the institution of mar-
riage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is
instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that
decision should rest with the people acting through their
elected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen
to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legal
disputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no
doubt about the answer.

Same principle as the current case. Same solution. I stay unworried, nay,  positively enamored.

I am your friend. [Now, don't say with friends like these you don't need enemies. :-(]

[financeguy]

My body, my choice?

I'm all in, but rings a bit hollow when we have seatbelt laws, motorcycle helmet mandates, prohibition on certain drugs, prostitution ban in most places, and an inability to sell your kidney. Ladies, if you're on board with all those things I'm on your side. If you aren't, I still agree with choice but won't be joining you in the picket line. Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!

That is an incredibly ugly, patronizing, condescending thing to say.  I am incensed that you say Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!  How dare you make light of  a legal decision that undermines much of what women and minorities have gained over the past 50 years.

It's only "making light" of the abortion situation if you think those other things are frivolous. And if you do think that just because they don't affect you, why should I care about the things you value when they don't affect me? I'm not a fan of selective libertarianism, favoring to get out of other people's business entirely, including abortion. I'm all for the "my body/my choice" argument but unfortunately women in the United States are the fat personal trainers and bankrupt financial planners who don't exactly lend legitimacy to their statements with their actions. When women as a group largely vote for every possible infraction on my life, it's difficult for me to really give an F about your abortion rights, although I agree you should have them. Two totally different things to be in agreement with something on the one hand and on the other hand actually make any effort beyond that agreement.

[marshwiggle]

You are levelling up by mixing multiple fallacies on this one - strawman and red herring all together all wound up in one grossly offensive little package.

Trans people are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault and other assaults than perpetrators. Cis people (including cis women) can also sexually assault other cis people (including cis women) in prison or any other environment. 

Lawsuit: Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate

An inmate at Illinois' largest women's prison says she was raped by a transgender inmate who was transferred into her housing unit last year, and claims Illinois Department of Corrections officials conducted a "sham investigation" to help cover up the incident.

'I was sexually assaulted in a women's prison... by a fellow inmate with male genitalia':

The prisoner who sexually assaulted Amy — we cannot legally identify her, so we shall call her J — is a transgender woman, with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and therefore referred to by the female pronoun, but still had male genitalia.

Amy was equally well aware that J still had male genitalia because she often intimidated her and fellow female prisoners at HMP Bronzefield in Ashford, Middlesex, by exposing them.

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

Transgender Rikers inmate sentenced to 7 years for raping female prisoner

A transgender Rikers inmate raped a female prisoner while in the women's section of the jail and has been sentenced to seven years, officials said Monday.

Ramel Blount, 33, who goes by Diamond Blount, pleaded guilty to attempted rape April 7 in an apparent plea deal.

Investigators said Blount — who was housed in the female section of the facility — approached a 33-year-old female inmate in the bathroom at the Rose M. Singer center Feb. 8, 2021, after the victim had just finished showering.

Blount held the victim down by the back of her neck and raped her, investigators said.

Your assaults on the dignity and humanity of trans people are not okay. Please stop.

Little known fact: When people can claim some sort of status and benefit merely by self-declaration, some people will lie simply in order to claim the benefit.

A system that can easily be gamed invites people to game the system.

[downer]

The right is already planning a federal abortion ban.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/05/02/republicans-will-try-to-ban-abortion-nationwide-if-supreme-court-overturns-roe-v-wade-report-reveals/

Rates of sexual inactivity have been increasing in recent years, especially for men. I guess that trend will continue.

One fact that I haven't seen much reported is that abortion rates have been steadily decreasing since 1980 in the US. They are less than half than they were in 1980.

The birth rate is also down. Teenage pregnancy is way down just about everywhere in the US.

Paradoxically, countries with higher abortion rates are those where it is illegal. It's quite possible that making abortion illegal will increase the abortion rate in the US.

[nebo113]

My body, my choice?

I'm all in, but rings a bit hollow when we have seatbelt laws, motorcycle helmet mandates, prohibition on certain drugs, prostitution ban in most places, and an inability to sell your kidney. Ladies, if you're on board with all those things I'm on your side. If you aren't, I still agree with choice but won't be joining you in the picket line. Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!

That is an incredibly ugly, patronizing, condescending thing to say.  I am incensed that you say Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!  How dare you make light of  a legal decision that undermines much of what women and minorities have gained over the past 50 years.

It's only "making light" of the abortion situation if you think those other things are frivolous. And if you do think that just because they don't affect you, why should I care about the things you value when they don't affect me? I'm not a fan of selective libertarianism, favoring to get out of other people's business entirely, including abortion. I'm all for the "my body/my choice" argument but unfortunately women in the United States are the fat personal trainers and bankrupt financial planners who don't exactly lend legitimacy to their statements with their actions. When women as a group largely vote for every possible infraction on my life, it's difficult for me to really give an F about your abortion rights, although I agree you should have them. Two totally different things to be in agreement with something on the one hand and on the other hand actually make any effort beyond that agreement.

So I am in the category of fat personal trainers and bankrupt financial planners ????  Refusing me health care if  I need an abortion or I will die is the equivalent of forcing you to wear a seat belt???? 

[Ruralguy]

We need to stop the political and social threads on this forum. They are pointless, and just lead to people feeling contempt.

[little bongo]

We need to stop the political and social threads on this forum. They are pointless, and just lead to people feeling contempt.

There's a point if you respect facts and language. We have a couple troll-bigots who do not. That's why facts, logic, and empathy don't work--they expect you to respect facts and language, because they don't have to. And that is the key. Once you understand that, you can let go of any and all discussion with them, because discussions become a troll-bigot playground.

The big secret: the troll-bigots only have power if we give it to them. That's the nice thing about the world of the fora and other discussion groups--whatever happens here has limited real-world consequences.

The world becomes a scary place when enough people give troll-bigots real power, and the world becomes their playground. That's when you need heroes. And maybe, within our limits, we can be those heroes, or at least be a little heroic.

[ciao_yall]

I enjoy everyone's discussions, even the vaguely obnoxious ones. These prepare me for comebacks when people send those out IRL.

[ciao_yall]

Agreed. BTW, in my world one can be both a friend and an opponent:)

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

Thank you, jimbojumbo.

I like the dissent. Here's a paragraph:

Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not
about whether, in my judgment, the institution of mar-
riage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is
instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that
decision should rest with the people acting through their
elected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen
to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legal
disputes according to law. The Constitution leaves no
doubt about the answer.

Same principle as the current case. Same solution. I stay unworried, nay,  positively enamored.

I am your friend. [Now, don't say with friends like these you don't need enemies. :-(]

I thought the purpose of the court was to uphold the Constitution against the tyranny of the majority (and/or the wealthy lobbyists?)

Silly me.

[ciao_yall]

My body, my choice?

I'm all in, but rings a bit hollow when we have seatbelt laws, motorcycle helmet mandates, prohibition on certain drugs, prostitution ban in most places, and an inability to sell your kidney. Ladies, if you're on board with all those things I'm on your side. If you aren't, I still agree with choice but won't be joining you in the picket line. Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!

That is an incredibly ugly, patronizing, condescending thing to say.  I am incensed that you say Have fun with authoritarianism aimed in your direction!  How dare you make light of  a legal decision that undermines much of what women and minorities have gained over the past 50 years.

It's only "making light" of the abortion situation if you think those other things are frivolous. And if you do think that just because they don't affect you, why should I care about the things you value when they don't affect me? I'm not a fan of selective libertarianism, favoring to get out of other people's business entirely, including abortion. I'm all for the "my body/my choice" argument but unfortunately women in the United States are the fat personal trainers and bankrupt financial planners who don't exactly lend legitimacy to their statements with their actions. When women as a group largely vote for every possible infraction on my life, it's difficult for me to really give an F about your abortion rights, although I agree you should have them. Two totally different things to be in agreement with something on the one hand and on the other hand actually make any effort beyond that agreement.

Something tells me financeguy doesn't even understand the need for birth control, much less abortions.

[ciao_yall]

You are levelling up by mixing multiple fallacies on this one - strawman and red herring all together all wound up in one grossly offensive little package.

Trans people are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault and other assaults than perpetrators. Cis people (including cis women) can also sexually assault other cis people (including cis women) in prison or any other environment. 

Lawsuit: Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate

An inmate at Illinois' largest women's prison says she was raped by a transgender inmate who was transferred into her housing unit last year, and claims Illinois Department of Corrections officials conducted a "sham investigation" to help cover up the incident.

'I was sexually assaulted in a women's prison... by a fellow inmate with male genitalia':

The prisoner who sexually assaulted Amy — we cannot legally identify her, so we shall call her J — is a transgender woman, with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and therefore referred to by the female pronoun, but still had male genitalia.

Amy was equally well aware that J still had male genitalia because she often intimidated her and fellow female prisoners at HMP Bronzefield in Ashford, Middlesex, by exposing them.

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

Transgender Rikers inmate sentenced to 7 years for raping female prisoner

A transgender Rikers inmate raped a female prisoner while in the women's section of the jail and has been sentenced to seven years, officials said Monday.

Ramel Blount, 33, who goes by Diamond Blount, pleaded guilty to attempted rape April 7 in an apparent plea deal.

Investigators said Blount — who was housed in the female section of the facility — approached a 33-year-old female inmate in the bathroom at the Rose M. Singer center Feb. 8, 2021, after the victim had just finished showering.

Blount held the victim down by the back of her neck and raped her, investigators said.

Your assaults on the dignity and humanity of trans people are not okay. Please stop.

Little known fact: When people can claim some sort of status and benefit merely by self-declaration, some people will lie simply in order to claim the benefit.

A system that can easily be gamed invites people to game the system.

More little known facts:

Women can rape women.

Men can rape men.

Sexual violence is not limited to beastly men and delicate women.

[little bongo]

You are levelling up by mixing multiple fallacies on this one - strawman and red herring all together all wound up in one grossly offensive little package.

Trans people are far more likely to be victims of sexual assault and other assaults than perpetrators. Cis people (including cis women) can also sexually assault other cis people (including cis women) in prison or any other environment. 

Lawsuit: Female Prisoner Says She Was Raped by Transgender Inmate

An inmate at Illinois' largest women's prison says she was raped by a transgender inmate who was transferred into her housing unit last year, and claims Illinois Department of Corrections officials conducted a "sham investigation" to help cover up the incident.

'I was sexually assaulted in a women's prison... by a fellow inmate with male genitalia':

The prisoner who sexually assaulted Amy — we cannot legally identify her, so we shall call her J — is a transgender woman, with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and therefore referred to by the female pronoun, but still had male genitalia.

Amy was equally well aware that J still had male genitalia because she often intimidated her and fellow female prisoners at HMP Bronzefield in Ashford, Middlesex, by exposing them.

Transgender prisoner who sexually assaulted inmates jailed for life

Karen White, 52, admitted sexually assaulting women in female prison and raping two other women outside jail

Transgender Rikers inmate sentenced to 7 years for raping female prisoner

A transgender Rikers inmate raped a female prisoner while in the women's section of the jail and has been sentenced to seven years, officials said Monday.

Ramel Blount, 33, who goes by Diamond Blount, pleaded guilty to attempted rape April 7 in an apparent plea deal.

Investigators said Blount — who was housed in the female section of the facility — approached a 33-year-old female inmate in the bathroom at the Rose M. Singer center Feb. 8, 2021, after the victim had just finished showering.

Blount held the victim down by the back of her neck and raped her, investigators said.

Your assaults on the dignity and humanity of trans people are not okay. Please stop.

Little known fact: When people can claim some sort of status and benefit merely by self-declaration, some people will lie simply in order to claim the benefit.

A system that can easily be gamed invites people to game the system.

More little known facts:

Women can rape women.

Men can rape men.

Sexual violence is not limited to beastly men and delicate women.

Bingo. You don't deny or denigrate identity because of a real or imagined cabal of potential perpetrators saying, "Gee whilikers, I wish there were laws and statutes that, by virtue of granting rights to those with trans or fluid identities, would enable me to rape more people." Because ANYONE CAN COMMIT SEXUAL VIOLENCE. AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS WRONG. That part doesn't change.

So, if your argument is down to, "But what of the perverts?" you really don't have an argument. Again, our resident bigot-trolls know this very well (and don't care--see my last post), but bless some folks' hearts, there are those who think it is a real argument.