"Warm" vs "Harsh" phrasing in student instructions and interactions.

[Caracal]

If we were going to adopt a parallel approach in our interaction with students, we would need much more one-on-one time with students and get to know them individually. We'd have to talk about their ways of studying, and talk about some how they can improve their skills.

I used to do that stuff when I taught First Year Experience classes. They were limited in size and I got to know the students a little. These days my teaching load does not make that approach feasible for me. And the trend all over is for faculty to have higher loads and more students in classes.

Sure, I make brief comments on student work and tell students repeatedly that if they want to do better and don't know why they are doing poorly, or aren't sure how to do better, they should come talk to me. If they come talk to me, that's more or less what I try to do. I don't have the bandwidth to go seek them out, however. Heck, I don't even know if the student is dissatisfied with the grade. I may not enjoy reading their C paper, but the student might be perfectly happy with that grade. Lecturing them about it would be the equivalent of when the IM basketball league I played in as a grad student required us to occasionally be a ref for other games, and some ref supervisor yelled at me because he thought I was making bad calls. What I thought was "Thanks for the feedback, @@@@$, this isn't really an avocation for me."

[Caracal]

The problem is, goofing off in class is a large, perhaps the large, part of the reason the paper or test sucked, so why not tell the kid that on the comments?   My doctor has a responsibilty, when I am in his office, to tell me to lose weight, exercise, etc., if these things apply.  I can ignore his comments, but he would be engaging in dereliction of duty not to make them.   Same thing with me the professor not calling out bad behavior that has led to academic unsuccess.   And, like it or not (and I like it), I want the students to, ahem, actually learn what I am teaching them.  Whether or not the class is required.

Your job is not "calling out bad behavior," any more than the doctors job is to tell you to lose weight. In both cases, that approach is not particularly likely to produce the desired results. It also might result in failing to figure out what's actually going on. A doctor shouldn't just assume that someone with a high cholesterol and a high BMI is eating poorly and not getting any exercise. If they are doing those things, that might mean you'd want to consider different treatment options. In some cases, an actual conversation might result in figuring out that something else is going on. A patient might say, "well, actually, I'd like to get more exercise but every time I try I start feeling like I can't breathe," which would presumably result in a doctor ordering some tests. Or maybe the patient has an incredibly busy schedule and needs to hear that even really brief amounts of daily exercise are very helpful.

Same thing for teaching. If you just assume a student who isn't doing well and seems inattentive in class is lazy and imply that in paper comments, you aren't going to accomplish anything but alienating the student, you might miss an opportunity to figure out what's really going on and even if you're right, you aren't going to get any buy in from the student.

I think you're confusing bluntness and rudeness. To come back to the parallel, I'm sure there are times doctors need to be blunt. I know someone whose doctor told them "look, if you want to see your kids graduate from college, you have to take better care of yourself." Similarly, it might be totally appropriate to tell a student "unless we figure out how to change something here, I'm worried you are going to fail this course." But that kind of thing is only going to work if it's part of a conversation. The doctor shouldn't just write in red ink next to the cholesterol number, "keep this up and you'll be dead in five years," and you shouldn't write in a paper "This is what comes from starting at your phone all class."

[Golazo]

If we were going to adopt a parallel approach in our interaction with students, we would need much more one-on-one time with students and get to know them individually. We'd have to talk about their ways of studying, and talk about some how they can improve their skills.

This shapes how I approach comments. If I have a close relationship with a student who gives me something that's not very good, I'll give feedback along the lines of "this kind of crap won't fly in grad school." But I would only do this with someone I actually know well and think would benefit from that approach.

[mamselle]

I'm reminded of a line in a Dick Francis novel. Something like,

"Our physics teacher caught out attention the first day of a class dedicated to the applied physics of boilers.

'The most important thing about boilers is that they can explode,' he explained calmly...

M.

It certainly makes the case of why it would be important to pay attention in class!

When you think about it, there are other fields where you might try making the same argument:

"The most important thing about political science is that politics can explode."

"The most important thing about history is that history can explode."

"The most important thing about economics is that economies can explode (Or implode, as the case may be)."

Etc.

Along the same lines:.

   https://youtu.be/ruBfXIVSYZ8

Not only was this fun, but the prof used their time productively, and was responsibly proactive in their presentation. They didn't dump sour feelings all over the students but celebrated something for its cognitive value..

Your students are not there to wick your countertransference of whatever disappointments you've had or anticipate having in life, they're there to learn.

Don't get sidetracked.

M.
   

[kaysixteen]

Be quiet.

I have limited access to any college kid, since I cannot make them come to office hours or even stay after class to chat privately.   What I can do is write comments on their work that would be returned to them.   Heck, I cannot even make them reaad such comments, and over the years many posters here have suggested they believe many such students do not read professor comments.   And as I long-time experienced teacher, k12 and higher ed, I have a reasonable ability to ascertain why a student has not been successful academically, whether such unsuccess is due to bad behavioral choices, choices which are especially eager to discern if the student is regularly behaving inappropriately in class for all, and esp for me, to see.   If thus, the likely (at least majority) reason for the paper's poor quality is such bad behavior, what choice do I have but to point this out?   If my doc sees me at McD's eating a 3000 calorie lunch, further, he would be entitled to make certain assumptions and comment thereon, and if he asks me questions like 'do you exercise?', or'do you eat junk food?', and I answer in way indicative of poor health choices, well, the same logic applies.

Why, again I ask, is this hard?

[Caracal]

Be quiet.

I have limited access to any college kid, since I cannot make them come to office hours or even stay after class to chat privately.   What I can do is write comments on their work that would be returned to them.   Heck, I cannot even make them reaad such comments, and over the years many posters here have suggested they believe many such students do not read professor comments.   And as I long-time experienced teacher, k12 and higher ed, I have a reasonable ability to ascertain why a student has not been successful academically, whether such unsuccess is due to bad behavioral choices, choices which are especially eager to discern if the student is regularly behaving inappropriately in class for all, and esp for me, to see.   If thus, the likely (at least majority) reason for the paper's poor quality is such bad behavior, what choice do I have but to point this out?   If my doc sees me at McD's eating a 3000 calorie lunch, further, he would be entitled to make certain assumptions and comment thereon, and if he asks me questions like 'do you exercise?', or'do you eat junk food?', and I answer in way indicative of poor health choices, well, the same logic applies.

Why, again I ask, is this hard?

The point of comments on assignments is to help students improve, right? So, sure, if lecturing them about their behavior in class in those comments would result in them paying more attention in class and doing better on the next assignment, then you should do it. However, in most cases, I don't think it will have that result. Instead, it will just alienate students and cause them to tune you out. Your job is not to tell students what you believe to be true at all times, regardless of the results.

You're right that you can't make a student come talk to you. You also can't make them care about the class, or take responsibility for the way their choices are impacting their grade. In a lot of cases, it isn't going to matter what you do or write. A student who gets a bad grade and a note from you that they should come talk to you, and ignores it, is almost certainly going to ignore your lecture in the paper comments as well. On the other hand, a student who might be receptive to a discussion may react defensively to comments on the paper.

[Ruralguy]

There's no reason to hold back incisive comments. Just try not to be a total jerk about it. I think we all know how to cushion blows a bit, but then still make the point. Yeah, it could lead to the student not quite seeing the point, but the same thing can happen if you end up being too insulting. Just try to stay on point. The point isn't that you want to be insulting, but that you want to correct particular behaviors or mistakes. 

[mamselle]

Be quiet.

A moi?

Or someone else?

Not following.

I do agree with this:

The point isn't that you want to be insulting, but that you want to correct particular behaviors or mistakes.

M.

[OneMoreYear]

We did not get a lot of TA training when I was in grad school, but once a seasoned TA broke it down essentially this way (we were primarily teaching intro courses), and part of this thread reminds me of his advice:

1. Know your stuff
2. Assume your students may know very little about the stuff (i.e., start at the beginning)
3. Tell your students why stuff is cool (or useful/practical/will help them succeed in major)
4. Be willing to explain stuff multiple times in multiple ways
5. Be willing to answer questions about the stuff
6. Check to see if your students learned any of the stuff (e.g., ask them questions in class, assign quizzes/exams/papers)
7. Tell your students what they learned about the stuff (e.g., give constructive feedback)
8. Don't be a jacka**

[jerseyjay]

And as I long-time experienced teacher, k12 and higher ed, I have a reasonable ability to ascertain why a student has not been successful academically, whether such unsuccess is due to bad behavioral choices, choices which are especially eager to discern if the student is regularly behaving inappropriately in class for all, and esp for me, to see.   If thus, the likely (at least majority) reason for the paper's poor quality is such bad behavior, what choice do I have but to point this out?   

I will admit that despite my over 20 years' teaching experience I am not able "to ascertain why a student has not been successful academically" in the vast majority of cases without spending more time looking at the individual student's case.

Yes, there are cases when a student regularly behaves in a manner that is directly correlated to doing poorly--e.g., falling asleep, not attending, looking at their phone, etc. But I have had students who do such things and still manage to do okay in the class. And I also have had students who are not obviously engaging in such behavior and yet do not do well.

It is possible--even likely--that such students are not reading, paying attention in class, or otherwise doing things that hurt their grade. But they are not often doing so in an obvious way, and it would presumptuous on my part to tell them not to do something they are not obviously doing. There are also other reasons why a student might not do well in class that are not immediately obvious.

If a student comes to me and asks me how they can do better, I can go through the various possibilities and offer suggestions. But I do not feel it worthwhile to assume I know why a student is doing poorly--even if I can make an educated guess.

My comments on papers are directed to what is one the paper (or perhaps, not on the paper). This paper has a weak thesis. This paper does not use evidence from the reading. This paper needs to be better proofread because it is full of typos. I usually preface these with something nice. If the paper is a real mess, I might indicate that somehow and suggest a student talk to me.

Thus:
"While there are some interesting ideas in this essay, they are not sufficiently developed. There is also no obvious thesis, which weakens the paper. Please come and talk to me to discuss the paper."

The student may or may not talk with me. That's their choice. But I do not judge the student. Yes, the student probably would get a better grade if they did the reading, showed up to class on time, and put away their phone. But I do not grade those things directly, and when I am grading, I also don't have a student's attendance record in front of me.

[mamselle]

A friend used to use these criterion, (mnemonic, "SPAM-O) which echo some of what you just said, JJay:

S = Specific

P = Positive

A = Affirmative

M = Measurable

O = Objective

I'd forgotten them until seeing this, but they're useful as a descriptive tool.

M.

[the_geneticist]

Also, aren't you supposed to score papers and give feedback WITHOUT looking at their names?  I know it's sometimes hard to not recognize students due to unique handwriting/ideas/writing style, but I don't see any benefit to trying to rationalize their performance based on what you noticed about them in class.
A generic "please come talk with me about how you approached this assignment" is a non-judgmental way to let a student know that they should ask for more help.

And as other have pointed out, there are students who "goof off" yet do OK in classes.  Some of them are happy with their scores.  And there are students who appear to be attentive, on task, participating, and yet don't do particularly well in class.  What would you say to them?

I'd address the "goofing off" behavior during class while it's happening, not days or weeks later on an assignment.

[kaysixteen]

Random responses:

1) I do not accuse a student of goofing off in class unless I have actually observed him doing that.   It is a straw man to suggest that I or anyone else who is competent would do that.

2) Some students will goof off in class regularly and still do well.   More power to them, though if their behavior distracts me or especially their fellow students, that still needs to be called out.   College profs have to do this differently than hs teachers do, but do it they must.

3) Where did you get the idea that one is supposed to grade papers without looking at the students' names?

4) Unless the behavior is severely disruptive, when teaching college, I am never going to call a student out publicly in class.   Therefore, those paper comments are even more needed.

5) Some students will react negatively or defensively to being told, in a polite but firm way, the unvarnished truth.   But this does not obviate the need to tell them things that I have an obligation to tell them.  Being 'insulting', however, must needs be something different than honestly saying 'this paper would have been better had you not been regularly looking at your phone.'

[Hegemony]

It seems really almost perversely counterproductive to be afraid to say, "Hey, remember, no phones, guys" during class when students are looking at their phones, but to chastise them for having been on their phones weeks later when their papers or exams are poor. If they shouldn't be on their phones, go ahead and say that at the time, not afterwards when it's too late.

I'm also surprised to hear that anyone has missed the memo about not looking at the students' names when grading papers or exams.

[the_geneticist]

It's been standard practice for 10+ years to grade anonymously when possible.