"Warm" vs "Harsh" phrasing in student instructions and interactions.

[artalot]

I also think it matters if the feedback is developmental vs. summative. On a draft I am encouraging and positive and try to point out areas that are strong as well as areas that have 'potential' with specific things that could improve those areas. I will also suggest that students come meet with me, which is code for "eesh, this is bad." By the time we get to the final draft, I provide very little feedback. There's not much they can do at that point and I don't think that most of them look at it anyway.

[the_geneticist]

I also use the "please come talk with me" for students that do not earn passing grades on exams.  We talk about what they missed, how they approached the questions, what they did to prepare.  It usually ends up being a conversation about how they ought to: buy the book, read the book, take notes, pay attention in class, try the practice problems, find other students to study with, etc. 

[downer]

The assumption that we should be nice to the students and not make them feel judged is probably correct for lots of them. Some people don't respond well to being judged. They are timid and uncertain, and they need encouragement.

However, for the apparently clueless students who don't know which end is up, it's not clear to me that being nice is the best approach. They may be especially the ones who need very firm boundaries and no-nonsense directions.

For some students, being direct and even judgmental is what is liable to get them to produce their best work.

Being direct and even harsh is perfectly compatible with being very helpful to students. Indeed, some students could be further confused and ultimately disadvantaged by a professor who is very flexible and keeps on telling the students they are full of potential. Sometimes students need a reality check.

All of that strikes me as obvious. One on one, it is simple to adjust to a student's needs. The difficulty is finding some kind of middle way when teaching a large group.

[Caracal]

The assumption that we should be nice to the students and not make them feel judged is probably correct for lots of them. Some people don't respond well to being judged. They are timid and uncertain, and they need encouragement.

However, for the apparently clueless students who don't know which end is up, it's not clear to me that being nice is the best approach. They may be especially the ones who need very firm boundaries and no-nonsense directions.

For some students, being direct and even judgmental is what is liable to get them to produce their best work.

Being direct and even harsh is perfectly compatible with being very helpful to students. Indeed, some students could be further confused and ultimately disadvantaged by a professor who is very flexible and keeps on telling the students they are full of potential. Sometimes students need a reality check.

All of that strikes me as obvious. One on one, it is simple to adjust to a student's needs. The difficulty is finding some kind of middle way when teaching a large group.

It also depends on where the student is at. Through most of my time as an undergrad, I didn't need particularly harsh criticism. I was a good student in my major, I prided myself on doing good work and when I got a lower grade on a paper than I was accustomed to, I was disappointed with myself and knew that I didn't do a great job. I didn't need the comments to tell me that explicitly. On the other hand, I had a high school English teacher who was very direct about shortcomings and sloppiness in papers-she wasn't mean, but she wasn't worried about hurting anyone's feelings. As a somewhat lazy teenager, I really needed that.

Most of my mentors in grad school were pretty positive and encouraging, but in my first year a professor told me that something I had turned in wasn't acceptable and nobody would take me seriously if I turned in things that were that messy.  Not a fun thing to hear, but it was something I needed to internalize and if it had been phrased more "warmly" it wouldn't have had the same effect.

[Hegemony]

However, for the apparently clueless students who don't know which end is up, it's not clear to me that being nice is the best approach. They may be especially the ones who need very firm boundaries and no-nonsense directions.

I'd say the misunderstanding here is that you can't be both firm and nice. You can easily be both. A lot of it is a matter of not expressing disdain or contempt — or even of feeling it but attempting to hide it.

[downer]

However, for the apparently clueless students who don't know which end is up, it's not clear to me that being nice is the best approach. They may be especially the ones who need very firm boundaries and no-nonsense directions.

I'd say the misunderstanding here is that you can't be both firm and nice. You can easily be both. A lot of it is a matter of not expressing disdain or contempt — or even of feeling it but attempting to hide it.

I'd certainly agree about firm and nice being compatible. I felt like the deans who were handing out advice were assuming they are incompatible. I can't think of any circumstances where the best option is to be mean to students.

[kaysixteen]

Define 'mean', however.   Like one old-time educator told me back in '06 when I took my first higher ed job after basically having just been k12, 'most of the kids at ____College will think a C is the same as an F'.   Mean, IOW, is a rather relative term.

[Caracal]

Define 'mean', however.   Like one old-time educator told me back in '06 when I took my first higher ed job after basically having just been k12, 'most of the kids at ____College will think a C is the same as an F'.   Mean, IOW, is a rather relative term.

I don't think its that complicated. Mean is about making things personal. Comment on the paper, not the student's motivations or work ethic. Don't make broad comments about a student's abilities. Also don't take a tone that implies that you are personally offended and angry about the defects in the student's work. We all get annoyed and frustrated when students don't do good work or pay attention to instructions, but keep those feelings out of the comments. Direct is fine, but the way to keep blunt criticism from being mean is to be constructive. In that same vein, don't belabor things. If there are grammatical errors in every sentence, its probably not worth marking all of them and you don't need to make comments about each one of them. It is probably better to make a broad comment about the issues and suggest the student come talk to you if they are struggling to see where the issues are.

[mythbuster]

Caracal, I agree entirely with your definition, but many of my students would characterize any constructive feedback as "mean".  They aren't used to it, since the "good" students essentially never got any in high school. It's a real eye-opener for them.

[downer]

I often hear about sensitive students who take offense easily or are emotionally sensitive. (Presumably such students would also be upset to get comments in red ink too.) I see news stories about them, and I hear about them from people who work at other schools. These seem to be the students that the deans have in mind with their "be nice and non-judgmental with the students" advice.

I wonder how many students like that there are, or whether some schools attract them more than others. I have taught plenty of students who are at high risk of failing or dropping out. Some of my students are timid and lack confidence. More often they are just not committed to college or are ambivalent about it. Some are badly prepared for college work. But I can't remember the last time a student gave any indication they were offended or injured by anything I said or that they took my comments personally as a judgment on them. They all seem to understand the difference between me assessing their work and judging their character.

Actually, there was a student once who fell asleep in class and could not be woken. That student was upset I told the security person for the building about them and then went home, rather than stayed around to make sure they were OK. That student had issues.

[Hegemony]

I think students often don't indicate to the professor when they are crushed by harsh feedback. It happened to me a few times in college — and I am still distressed by it, it was so unnecessarily mean — but I maintained a stoic appearance. We also have a prof who is a bit notorious for withering responses to students. When approached about this, he says the students know it's all in good fun. That's not what the students say when they come to me about it.

[downer]

I think students often don't indicate to the professor when they are crushed by harsh feedback. It happened to me a few times in college — and I am still distressed by it, it was so unnecessarily mean — but I maintained a stoic appearance. We also have a prof who is a bit notorious for withering responses to students. When approached about this, he says the students know it's all in good fun. That's not what the students say when they come to me about it.

That's an important point. We operate in a state of ignorance, not knowing how our responses will affect all students.

What's the optimal trategy in a state of ignorance? Is "harsh" feedback totally subjective or are there ways to spell out what to avoid?

Obviously, we can be straightforward and give feedback about what can be improved, without making personal remarks. If feedback contains "You should not be in college" then it has gone too far. But there will still be a grey area.

[kaysixteen]

"This paper (test) would have been much better had you been paying attention in class instead of regularly playing on your phone."

Should I say this on a paper/ test comment, assuming, of course, it is the truth?   Why or why not?

[Hegemony]

I think it would be more helpful to say, "Be sure to pay attention in class as much as possible and in every class period, take good notes that you can review. That will give you the best chance of success in a test like this."

I don't allow students to be on their phones in class, incidentally.

[downer]

"This paper (test) would have been much better had you been paying attention in class instead of regularly playing on your phone."

Should I say this on a paper/ test comment, assuming, of course, it is the truth?   Why or why not?

Sounds to be making too many assumptions to me -- how do you know the student was playing rather than texting about an ill family member? And maybe the student would not have done better even if paying more attention. I think it is up to the student to work out how to do better.

I was just reading this article
https://www.chronicle.com/article/how-to-teach-a-good-first-day-of-class/

I am ambivalent about the idea that it is my job to win students over. I do want to engage the students, and to create an atmosphere in the classroom where students can learn well. But reading this paragraph makes me wonder: He is saying don't start by handing out the syllabus.

The first day is the best day to spark your students' curiosity.
Instead, consider the first day as your best opportunity to spark students' curiosity and invite them into a fascinating intellectual journey. In his book, What the Best College Teachers Do, Ken Bain argues that instructors should build and present learning experiences around deep questions and problems. Highly effective college instructors recollect what first fascinated them about their discipline, pay attention to what fascinates students today, and make a connection with those issues at the opening of the semester. Such instructors reflect upon why the course should matter, and work to convey the significance of its content to students as well as to their world beyond the classroom.

I have noticed that this is very much a pattern for people who teach in The Great Courses. Maybe I will try it. I can't help thinking it is an overly idealized view of college teaching. But this guy is teaching English comp, which is generally associated with drudgery.