NBC: Why Americans are increasingly dubious about going to college

[Wahoo Redux]

I'd like to see factual confirmation of Wingard's employment claims, personally.

He almost gets it:

Who needs a four-year marketing degree graduate to run social media when you can instead hire someone fresh out of high school and sign them up for HootSuite's Academy's social media certification course? Why pay for a six-figure education when HootSuite can get you some of the same skills in just six hours and for less than $200?

But then he misses the point:

We all know that a $200 certificate program does not remotely equate to a four-year education from a best-in-class institution like Temple University, but perception is everything.

Um, no. Time will tell if the high school graduates being hired work out well in the long term, as the employers are assuming will happen. If they don't, then that will suggest the lack of higher education is a problem. However, if they do work out, then that will show that for certain employment options, higher education is a waste of time and money.

I want to know if Wingard's claims can be independently verified. 

And again, OMG, there it is again, the idea that "higher education is a waste of time and money" based entirely upon employment outcomes.  This is how higher ed is being driven into the ground.

As someone still paying off loans, yes, I understand the expenses.

[marshwiggle]

I'd like to see factual confirmation of Wingard's employment claims, personally.

He almost gets it:

Who needs a four-year marketing degree graduate to run social media when you can instead hire someone fresh out of high school and sign them up for HootSuite's Academy's social media certification course? Why pay for a six-figure education when HootSuite can get you some of the same skills in just six hours and for less than $200?

But then he misses the point:

We all know that a $200 certificate program does not remotely equate to a four-year education from a best-in-class institution like Temple University, but perception is everything.

Um, no. Time will tell if the high school graduates being hired work out well in the long term, as the employers are assuming will happen. If they don't, then that will suggest the lack of higher education is a problem. However, if they do work out, then that will show that for certain employment options, higher education is a waste of time and money.

I want to know if Wingard's claims can be independently verified. 

And again, OMG, there it is again, the idea that "higher education is a waste of time and money" based entirely upon employment outcomes.  This is how higher ed is being driven into the ground.

So other than people working in higher education, where are the hordes of people standing up and saying "My higher education was well worth it, even though I don't think it really affected my career trajectory much?"

In principle, there should be a lot of them around if the emphasis on employment outcomes is misplaced.

[Wahoo Redux]

Try not to misunderstand, Marshy, which I think you sometimes deliberately aim to do because you like to argue.

But since you asked, I did a quick Google search and came up with this:

Survey: 80% of College Graduates Believe Higher Education Worth Their Investment

Survey shows Americans are divided   This is somewhere in the threads already, but:

Six in 10 American adults say that a college degree is worth the time and money, according to a survey released today from the Association of American Colleges and Universities and Bipartisan Policy Center.

82% of college grads believe their bachelor's degree was a good investment—but most would make this one change

Tens of thousands of dollars later, most college grads say the degree was worth it

And, of course, with Google, the results go on for pages.  Point being, yeah, plenty value their college degrees.

You could have looked this up yourself.  If you want to discuss, great.  If you just want to be contrarian, that's when I personally stop reading your posts.

[marshwiggle]

Try not to misunderstand, Marshy, which I think you sometimes deliberately aim to do because you like to argue.

82% of college grads believe their bachelor's degree was a good investment—but most would make this one change

From that article:

But according to a new survey from college planning website BestColleges of 817 American adults who have actually earned a bachelor's degree, 82% say their degree was a "good financial investment."
However, the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce estimates that a bachelor's degree is worth $2.8 million over a lifetime, on average

Indeed, there is still reason to believe in the conventional wisdom that a college degree can be a clear path to stronger job opportunities and higher earnings.

From this one:

Tens of thousands of dollars later, most college grads say the degree was worth it

Smith-Barrow says the experts she's talked with say college is a sound investment.

"If you have a four-year degree, on average, you make two-thirds more than someone who just has a high school diploma and you're half as likely to be unemployed," she says.

That's if you get a degree. She says it's not a good investment to start college but leave before you graduate.

"The people who often struggle the most with student loans are the ones who do not finish," she says. " And if you don't finish, it really makes the investment almost nothing."

So these still base the "worth" of the degree on lifetime earnings afterwards; i.e. employment outcomes.

And, of course, with Google, the results go on for pages.  Point being, yeah, plenty value their college degrees.

You could have looked this up yourself.  If you want to discuss, great.  If you just want to be contrarian, that's when I personally stop reading your posts.

People overwhelmingly value their degrees for the financial payoff.  For that reason the economics of getting a degree are of utmost importance.

[Wahoo Redux]

People overwhelmingly value their degrees for the financial payoff.  For that reason the economics of getting a degree are of utmost importance.

I have never disputed that.

And this is a point that has been made ad nauseam. 

[marshwiggle]

People overwhelmingly value their degrees for the financial payoff.  For that reason the economics of getting a degree are of utmost importance.

I have never disputed that.

OK, well now I'm confused:

And again, OMG, there it is again, the idea that "higher education is a waste of time and money" based entirely upon employment outcomes. 

[Wahoo Redux]

People overwhelmingly value their degrees for the financial payoff.  For that reason the economics of getting a degree are of utmost importance.

I have never disputed that.

OK, well now I'm confused:

And again, OMG, there it is again, the idea that "higher education is a waste of time and money" based entirely upon employment outcomes. 

I know, Marshy.  In an effort of fellowship let me explain.

Many, almost certainly the majority of students and parents, view the college degree as an employment passport, at least the most voiced reason for higher ed and the focus most often in the media.

This myopia is pernicious to academia.

Actually, if you look up the various views of higher ed, one finds that there are several aspects of higher ed that students view as beneficial----essentially a passport to the other aspects of a middle class lifestyle ("broadening," "socialization," etc) which very seldom gets coverage.

At the risk of sounding classist, people with college degrees do tend to live a different sort of lifestyle than people who do not, no matter how much money they make, very broadly speaking, of course.

And despite the current rage to tear down academia, a majority of graduates think their degrees were worth it.  It should come as no surprise that people who do not finish their degrees are bitter, fairly or not.

[ciao_yall]

People overwhelmingly value their degrees for the financial payoff.  For that reason the economics of getting a degree are of utmost importance.

I have never disputed that.

OK, well now I'm confused:

And again, OMG, there it is again, the idea that "higher education is a waste of time and money" based entirely upon employment outcomes. 

To consider, a college degree conveys social and cultural power along with access to higher paying jobs.

So someone with social and cultural power is probably more likely to marry well, even if they don't ever work a day in their lives again. And their children are likely to attain social and cultural power due to the spouse's income and social position.

[Wahoo Redux]

I have an inkling as to where we're headed. In 2017, while serving as dean of Columbia University's School of Professional Studies, I noticed a startling trend. Top employers in the New York City metropolitan area were no longer recruiting our undergraduate and graduate students with the same vigor and frequency. Rather, they were after students in Columbia University's high school program.

<snip>

On the surface, it makes sense. Who needs a four-year marketing degree graduate to run social media when you can instead hire someone fresh out of high school and sign them up for HootSuite's Academy's social media certification course?

As ciao_yall points out-----

Is Wingard actually suggesting that a high school graduate who is in charge of Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook accounts is going to rise to the executive level on a par with graduates of the august Columbia University?

Seems sensational. 

[Anon1787]

In contrast,

Rutgers University's Scarlet Guarantee program, which offers free in-state tuition for families that make less than $65,000, is a step in the right direction.

is not a step in the right direction, it's same old, same old price discrimination, which is practiced by all colleges already.

The founding president of my alma mater was notoriously frugal and deliberately priced tuition lower than its peer colleges but a later president dumped that tradition and raised tuition to match the others so as not "to leave money on the table" while promising more financial aid (and also went on a spending spree until the market crash in 2008). The lack of price transparency (as with health care) causes bloat and discourages some people from attending college.

[marshwiggle]

Many, almost certainly the majority of students and parents, view the college degree as an employment passport, at least the most voiced reason for higher ed and the focus most often in the media.

This myopia is pernicious to academia.

Actually, if you look up the various views of higher ed, one finds that there are several aspects of higher ed that students view as beneficial----essentially a passport to the other aspects of a middle class lifestyle ("broadening," "socialization," etc) which very seldom gets coverage.

At the risk of sounding classist, people with college degrees do tend to live a different sort of lifestyle than people who do not, no matter how much money they make, very broadly speaking, of course.

I don't actually disagree with that.

A couple decades ago, city council was bothered that downtown businesses were struggling as most people went to the 'burbs to shop. They hired a consultant to find out why. The consultant did a study of residents and concluded "There's not enough parking downtown." City council started to argue with the consultant to point out the plethora of parking downtown.

The consultant said "If people don't think there's enough parking downtown, there's not enough parking downtown."

Translation: You have to deal with peoples' perceptions, rather than just telling them they're wrong.

The value of a degree is impossible to meaningfully discuss without including the economics of it, all of those other factors notwithstanding.

And despite the current rage to tear down academia, a majority of graduates think their degrees were worth it.  It should come as no surprise that people who do not finish their degrees are bitter, fairly or not.

But if unfinished degrees have no economic payoff, then that's pretty strong evidence that the signalling value of the degree is much greater than the education value. (Someone who drops out in their final year should have something like 80% or more of the "value" of the degree from the experience, unless most of the "value" comes from the possession of the credential, a.k.a. signalling.)

[downer]

There are lots of ways in which a college education is useful. For prestigious places, there is both signalling value and also networking value.  Those who go to good schools are able to draw on their connections with people in power. It's long been pointed out that higher ed perpetuates inequality in the US.
https://academicmatters.ca/higher-education-and-growing-inequality/
The value of expensive schools is rarely in the education. It's in the social step up they provide.

[Wahoo Redux]

But if unfinished degrees have no economic payoff, then that's pretty strong evidence that the signalling value of the degree is much greater than the education value. (Someone who drops out in their final year should have something like 80% or more of the "value" of the degree from the experience, unless most of the "value" comes from the possession of the credential, a.k.a. signalling.)

Sure.  A lot of the cultural value of a degree is its social signaling.  I wouldn't dispute that.

And yeah, I think peeps do get a great deal out of a couple of years of college.  Your junior dropout did get 80% of hu's tuition worth, for better or worse.  Of course, you can have someone who dropped out of high school and then pursued a very rich intellectual life, but this person is rare. 

Anecdotally, I am teaming up with a comic book artist for, what I hope, are a series of horror/humor comics.  Think of a casting call for "comic book guy" for a low-budget sitcom and this is the guy.  Both his parents are high school drop outs (I think he told me they were janitors) and they wanted more for their son, so they sent him to the university which just laid me off and hired me back as a part-timer.  He made it through his sophomore year and quit.  But during that sophomore year he took a drawing class and his professor encouraged him to draw.  Fame and fortune did not follow (otherwise he could find a more high profile writing partner) but that is now what he does.  He's lucky that he has a wife that supports him, but there it is.

I wouldn't present this fellah as a prototype of the happy drop out, but he is an example of a guy who found his way accidentally by attending a few years of college.

[dismalist]

And, of course, with Google, the results go on for pages.  Point being, yeah, plenty value their college degrees.

Then there's no problem.

[dismalist]

There are lots of ways in which a college education is useful. For prestigious places, there is both signalling value and also networking value.  Those who go to good schools are able to draw on their connections with people in power. It's long been pointed out that higher ed perpetuates inequality in the US.
https://academicmatters.ca/higher-education-and-growing-inequality/
The value of expensive schools is rarely in the education. It's in the social step up they provide.

Signaling makes higher ed like an arms race. The less it is subsidized, the better. Borrow on commercial terms.

Networking gives individuals an advantage, so let individuals pay. No cause for subsidy. Borrow on commercial terms.

Anyway, all this, including more education, can be done in high school.