Pronoun use mostly by younger Canadians: Poll

[marshwiggle]

Highlights from the article:

• Almost 85% of Canadians don't add their pronouns to emails.
• Most Canadians (85.4%) do not believe adding pronouns should be compulsory.
• Those who do use pronouns in emails or social media or share in meetings think it should be required. Of those who do share, 58.8% said it should be compulsory.
• Young people aged 18 to 24 are most likely to share pronouns, with about 30% saying they do so.
• Another ACS poll found many people don't like the word racialized. Of those polled, 43.6% favoured "persons of colour" and thought it made the most sense in reference to Black or Asian people.
• Canadians who are Black prefer "visible minorities," with 44.3% saying this term makes the most sense. Another 11.3 per cent of Black-identifying respondents said "racialized groups" is best.
• More than half of Asian respondents say "visible minority" is best.
• Persons aged 18 to 24 prefer "racialized groups" to refer to Black or Asian people, and 24 per cent say it makes the most sense. Very few aged 45 to 54 say it's the better term.

[Parasaurolophus]

Okay. Shrug.

[marshwiggle]

Okay. Shrug.

Should the topic come up here at some point, this gives a bit of useful data for context.

[mahagonny]

Unsurprisingly I think that:

Apparently wider society is just not as enlightened as the academic world and the government, despite our vigorous efforts to improve them.

"The National Post cites Jack Jedwab, president and CEO of the ACS, as saying Canadians need more guidance from academics and policymakers about the language changes, including information on what these terms mean and why it is important to understand their use."

Of course he does. If he isn't there to change something, who needs him? Government bureaucracy is a self-regenerating plague.

Too misquote Yogi Berra, if people don't want to announce their preferred pronouns, you can't stop them.

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

[mahagonny]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

Uh huh, more like you are making fun of people who are gender non-binary.

Is that something you think is funny or cool? Making fun of people because they are different than you? Is that how you think adults should behave?

No need for you to respond, I have no interest in wasting time engaging with you on this.

[mahagonny]

That is where you are wrong. Being non-binary or trans gender is anyone's right. I belittle no one over this. And if you were in my workplace you could get in trouble for what you're saying to me.

[marshwiggle]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

Uh huh, more like you are making fun of people who are gender non-binary.

Is that something you think is funny or cool? Making fun of people because they are different than you? Is that how you think adults should behave?

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like. (On other threads there have been all kinds of stories of people post-pandemic demanding to be able to do everything remotely, for any number of reasons. If no reason were required, you can bet many if not most students would demand it.)

As for whether that's how adults "should" behave,  all that matters is that many will behave that way as long as it is allowed and/or supported.

[mahagonny]

Not to mention, a person's reason to be gender non-binary is likely to be personal, and not something to interrogate them over.

As for 'how adults should behave' I don't find getting irritated when someone says they are non-binary is particularly becoming.

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

Uh huh, more like you are making fun of people who are gender non-binary.

Is that something you think is funny or cool? Making fun of people because they are different than you? Is that how you think adults should behave?

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like. (On other threads there have been all kinds of stories of people post-pandemic demanding to be able to do everything remotely, for any number of reasons. If no reason were required, you can bet many if not most students would demand it.)

As for whether that's how adults "should" behave,  all that matters is that many will behave that way as long as it is allowed and/or supported.

Whatever man, I don't respect people who make fun of others because of their sexual orientation, race, gender, IQ, etc. We can have policy disagreements and keep it respectful, but when someone starts making fun of others just because they are different, it takes things in another direction and I'm going to look at them like the childish troll that they show themselves to be.

As for your point, these people aren't claiming a "special privilege," they're just saying that they don't feel themselves to fit in with either gender and so prefer not to be categorized as one or the other. If that is too much of an ask for you, then say what you want, none of us care as you can see in the responses (or lack thereof) to your thread. But spare spare us all the obviously false equivalence.

[marshwiggle]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

Uh huh, more like you are making fun of people who are gender non-binary.

Is that something you think is funny or cool? Making fun of people because they are different than you? Is that how you think adults should behave?

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like. (On other threads there have been all kinds of stories of people post-pandemic demanding to be able to do everything remotely, for any number of reasons. If no reason were required, you can bet many if not most students would demand it.)

As for whether that's how adults "should" behave,  all that matters is that many will behave that way as long as it is allowed and/or supported.

Whatever man, I don't respect people who make fun of others because of their sexual orientation, race, gender, IQ, etc. We can have policy disagreements and keep it respectful, but when someone starts making fun of others just because they are different, it takes things in another direction and I'm going to look at them like the childish troll that they show themselves to be.

I don't respect convicted rapists who claim to be trans to get placed in women's prisons where they continue their predations. And I certainly don't respect the people with their heads in the sand who implicitly condone this. To be clear: the idea that someone can simply make a claim, requiring no evidence, that allows them some privilege that they wouldn't otherwise have, (such as what spaces they can enter, or what events they can participate in), opens the door to abuse by all kinds of unethical people.  Just because many, or even most, of the people who do it will do so "honestly" doesn't absolve those supporting it from responsibility for giving cover to the abuse unless and until they make some legitimate, concrete effort to prevent it.

As for your point, these people aren't claiming a "special privilege," they're just saying that they don't feel themselves to fit in with either gender and so prefer not to be categorized as one or the other. If that is too much of an ask for you, then say what you want, none of us care as you can see in the responses (or lack thereof) to your thread. But spare spare us all the obviously false equivalence.

In 99% of normal human interactions, a person's gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. will be entirely irrelevant and do not need to be stated or implied. (For instance, since the only gendered pronoun in English is 3rd person singular, any face-to-face conversation won't need it.) Trying to preface interactions by exchanging pronouns imposes an unnecessary awkwardness. (Starting a conversation by exchanging sexual orientations is similarly unnecessary.)

There are many (most?) details of peoples' private lives that do not need to come up in conversation, and dragging them out explicitly actually makes interactions more strained than they need to be. (Consider online interactions like here on the fora. By being pseudonymous, all kinds of details like age, ethnicity, etc. are not explicitly revealed, so discussions don't need to be automatically freighted with extraneous baggage. No-one needs to reveal any of those things unless and until they choose to do so.)

[Sun_Worshiper]

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

Don't you feel a little small for belittling trans people? It is pretty lame.

Excuse me? I am gender non-binary.

Uh huh, more like you are making fun of people who are gender non-binary.

Is that something you think is funny or cool? Making fun of people because they are different than you? Is that how you think adults should behave?

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like. (On other threads there have been all kinds of stories of people post-pandemic demanding to be able to do everything remotely, for any number of reasons. If no reason were required, you can bet many if not most students would demand it.)

As for whether that's how adults "should" behave,  all that matters is that many will behave that way as long as it is allowed and/or supported.

Whatever man, I don't respect people who make fun of others because of their sexual orientation, race, gender, IQ, etc. We can have policy disagreements and keep it respectful, but when someone starts making fun of others just because they are different, it takes things in another direction and I'm going to look at them like the childish troll that they show themselves to be.

I don't respect convicted rapists who claim to be trans to get placed in women's prisons where they continue their predations. And I certainly don't respect the people with their heads in the sand who implicitly condone this. To be clear: the idea that someone can simply make a claim, requiring no evidence, that allows them some privilege that they wouldn't otherwise have, (such as what spaces they can enter, or what events they can participate in), opens the door to abuse by all kinds of unethical people.  Just because many, or even most, of the people who do it will do so "honestly" doesn't absolve those supporting it from responsibility for giving cover to the abuse unless and until they make some legitimate, concrete effort to prevent it.

As for your point, these people aren't claiming a "special privilege," they're just saying that they don't feel themselves to fit in with either gender and so prefer not to be categorized as one or the other. If that is too much of an ask for you, then say what you want, none of us care as you can see in the responses (or lack thereof) to your thread. But spare spare us all the obviously false equivalence.

In 99% of normal human interactions, a person's gender identity, sexual orientation, etc. will be entirely irrelevant and do not need to be stated or implied. (For instance, since the only gendered pronoun in English is 3rd person singular, any face-to-face conversation won't need it.) Trying to preface interactions by exchanging pronouns imposes an unnecessary awkwardness. (Starting a conversation by exchanging sexual orientations is similarly unnecessary.)

There are many (most?) details of peoples' private lives that do not need to come up in conversation, and dragging them out explicitly actually makes interactions more strained than they need to be. (Consider online interactions like here on the fora. By being pseudonymous, all kinds of details like age, ethnicity, etc. are not explicitly revealed, so discussions don't need to be automatically freighted with extraneous baggage. No-one needs to reveal any of those things unless and until they choose to do so.)

Yes the bolded is really the same as listing they/them as part of their Zoom name or at the end of an email. Give me a break.

And again, you can respect people's wishes to be called they/them, or don't. I really don't care what you do. I wouldn't have even responded to your thread if a certain somebody wasn't in here trolling in a particularly mean spirited way.

[mahagonny]

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like.

Stop there. That's not really the situation. For the people who approach this like Sun worshiper does, as long as the person claiming to be gender non-binary espouses all the right progressive views, they don't need a reason to be non-binary; whereas, if they hold conservative views, no reason is plausible.

[Sun_Worshiper]

When people can claim some sort of special privilege based on nothing but their request for it, you are going to get people doing it for all kinds of reasons, including some you don't like.

Stop there. That's not really the situation. For the people who approach this like Sun worshiper does, as long as the person claiming to be gender non-binary espouses all the right progressive views, they don't need a reason to be non-binary; whereas, if they hold conservative views, no reason is plausible.

Mahagonny, I'm going to lift my embargo on responding to you in this thread for one post to that in the extremely unlikely event that you are not trolling, but are actually being genuine, I am happy to call you "them."