Pronoun use mostly by younger Canadians: Poll

[mahagonny]

Smart move, Professor.

[Hegemony]

Is the whole point of this thread, "Let's raise a hot-button topic and see if we can get people to fight about it"? If not, I'm lost on what the goal is.

[marshwiggle]

Is the whole point of this thread, "Let's raise a hot-button topic and see if we can get people to fight about it"? If not, I'm lost on what the goal is.

The point of the thread was to allow a discussion. People do this a lot of times; link to an article and list a few highlights.

ETA: It's kind of ironic that on an academic forum, discussion of "hot-button" topics is considered a bad thing. If they can't be civilly discussed in a setting like this, society is in danger.

[Kron3007]

Unsurprisingly I think that:

Apparently wider society is just not as enlightened as the academic world and the government, despite our vigorous efforts to improve them.

"The National Post cites Jack Jedwab, president and CEO of the ACS, as saying Canadians need more guidance from academics and policymakers about the language changes, including information on what these terms mean and why it is important to understand their use."

Of course he does. If he isn't there to change something, who needs him? Government bureaucracy is a self-regenerating plague.

Too misquote Yogi Berra, if people don't want to announce their preferred pronouns, you can't stop them.

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

I don't know.  I thing society is progressing quite quick, it is just a demographic issue.  I live in a small town with big trucks, and my children live in a much more progressive world than you would imagine, probably more progressive than my university bubble in the nearby city.

Just as my grandparents seem very racist from my generational perspective, similar is true of us to our children.  It is quite good to see.

[mahagonny]

Unsurprisingly I think that:

Apparently wider society is just not as enlightened as the academic world and the government, despite our vigorous efforts to improve them.

"The National Post cites Jack Jedwab, president and CEO of the ACS, as saying Canadians need more guidance from academics and policymakers about the language changes, including information on what these terms mean and why it is important to understand their use."

Of course he does. If he isn't there to change something, who needs him? Government bureaucracy is a self-regenerating plague.

Too misquote Yogi Berra, if people don't want to announce their preferred pronouns, you can't stop them.

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

I don't know.  I thing society is progressing quite quick, it is just a demographic issue.  I live in a small town with big trucks, and my children live in a much more progressive world than you would imagine, probably more progressive than my university bubble in the nearby city.

Just as my grandparents seem very racist from my generational perspective, similar is true of us to our children.  It is quite good to see.

How are BIPOC people better off because of this progress?

[little bongo]

Well, for one thing, there's the term "BIPOC." Efforts by those in authority and positions of influence to include, to listen, and to acknowledge those who are unacknowledged... these are good things.

Yeah, there's bad stuff, misuse, and misunderstanding. To use one of your favorite expressions, "so what." We can choose to find the good and build upon it, or we can create worst-case scenarios from the pit of our fear and ignorance.

It's always our choice to make.

[marshwiggle]

Well, for one thing, there's the term "BIPOC." Efforts by those in authority and positions of influence to include, to listen, and to acknowledge those who are unacknowledged... these are good things.

"Progressives" didn't invent this yesterday. Decent, thoughtful, intelligent people have been doing this for decades. (Actually, probably more like millennia, across all kinds of cultures. All kinds of "wisdom literature" contain advice about things like "not judging a book by its cover.)  The idea that there are people who, for any number of reasons, go under the radar isn't remotely novel. And there are dozens of reasons that have nothing to do with "identity" categories.

The arrogance of acting like no-one ever thought of this before is what gets particular younger progressives dismissed as annoying and self-righteous.

[mahagonny]

Well, for one thing, there's the term "BIPOC." Efforts by those in authority and positions of influence to include, to listen, and to acknowledge those who are unacknowledged... these are good things.

Yeah, there's bad stuff, misuse, and misunderstanding. To use one of your favorite expressions, "so what." We can choose to find the good and build upon it, or we can create worst-case scenarios from the pit of our fear and ignorance.

It's always our choice to make.

'BIPOC' is a horrible term. Using the acronym BIPOC suggests an interchangeability in being Black or a person of color (i.e. South Asian, Korean, Chinese, etc.). There is no interchangeability.

What it does... potentially inadvertently, is that by lumping all these groups together, it comes across as—and suggests—that they are having the same experience. So the acronym BIPOC fails to articulate the differential ways that racialized people experience race and racism.

And we've got horribly racist terms like 'Monkeypox,' 'Africanized Killer Bees.'

Then we've got things like the democratic party and media depicting candidate Herschel Walker, who is a highly accomplished athlete and community leader, as a dim-witted guy who doesn't have the IQ to understand the issues, just to appeal to the racism of their white voting base.

What progress?

(Walker is running for GA Senate. I realize the thread is about a poll among Canadians. But I am calling progressive wokeism a phenomenon that spans across borders.)

[jimbogumbo]

Then we've got things like the democratic party and media depicting candidate Herschel Walker, who is a highly accomplished athlete and community leader, as a dim-witted guy who doesn't have the IQ to understand the issues, just to appeal to the racism of their white voting base.

What progress?

(Walker is running for GA Senate. I realize the thread is about a poll among Canadians. But I am calling progressive wokeism a phenomenon that spans across borders.)

I'm calling it. This comment is complete BS, so I think you've lost it.

[little bongo]

Well, for one thing, there's the term "BIPOC." Efforts by those in authority and positions of influence to include, to listen, and to acknowledge those who are unacknowledged... these are good things.

"Progressives" didn't invent this yesterday. Decent, thoughtful, intelligent people have been doing this for decades. (Actually, probably more like millennia, across all kinds of cultures. All kinds of "wisdom literature" contain advice about things like "not judging a book by its cover.)  The idea that there are people who, for any number of reasons, go under the radar isn't remotely novel. And there are dozens of reasons that have nothing to do with "identity" categories.

The arrogance of acting like no-one ever thought of this before is what gets particular younger progressives dismissed as annoying and self-righteous.

Are you saying I personally didn't invent goodness and decency? Hey, man, I've got a patent. Well, patent pending, anyway. Shall we say pistols at dawn?

Ah, well. Sorry you find looking for goodness to be annoying and self-righteous. Doesn't sound like a happy outlook. (Hey, I just concern-trolled a troll!)

It's not about who thought or didn't think of this sort of thing before. It's who's doing it now, and who's doing it better. And yes, a lot of us are annoying, self-righteous sons-of-bitch. (I won't flatter myself to take on the description "younger.") But overall I like what's happening among the "woke." I'll tell you something I learned from this fora:

I used to make fun of the convention of naming the indigenous peoples of the land from where you happen to be speaking when giving a presentation or a speech, for example. It seemed to me to be a performance of concern and righteousness--"virtue-signaling," if you will. Someone on the fora gave an example of an indigenous representative who expressed sincere gratitude for the naming. The act of naming and acknowledging truly meant something to that person. What an amazing example of what we human beings can do for each other! And who's making an effort to do that? Who is trying to make that kind of behavior the norm rather than an exception? I'd say progressives (including the annoying and self-righteous ones) are doing it more than the non-progressives; democrats are doing it more than republicans; and the left is doing it more than the right. That could change. But for now, well, sign me up for the next annoying, self-righteous wine and cheese party.

[mahagonny]

Then we've got things like the democratic party and media depicting candidate Herschel Walker, who is a highly accomplished athlete and community leader, as a dim-witted guy who doesn't have the IQ to understand the issues, just to appeal to the racism of their white voting base.

What progress?

(Walker is running for GA Senate. I realize the thread is about a poll among Canadians. But I am calling progressive wokeism a phenomenon that spans across borders.)

I'm calling it. This comment is complete BS, so I think you've lost it.

C'mon Professor. You don't have to take it so hard. Reverend Warnock preaches that it's time for good Christians to go to church and confess their original sin of racism. Redemption awaits you!

[marshwiggle]

Well, for one thing, there's the term "BIPOC." Efforts by those in authority and positions of influence to include, to listen, and to acknowledge those who are unacknowledged... these are good things.

"Progressives" didn't invent this yesterday. Decent, thoughtful, intelligent people have been doing this for decades. (Actually, probably more like millennia, across all kinds of cultures. All kinds of "wisdom literature" contain advice about things like "not judging a book by its cover.)  The idea that there are people who, for any number of reasons, go under the radar isn't remotely novel. And there are dozens of reasons that have nothing to do with "identity" categories.

The arrogance of acting like no-one ever thought of this before is what gets particular younger progressives dismissed as annoying and self-righteous.

Are you saying I personally didn't invent goodness and decency? Hey, man, I've got a patent. Well, patent pending, anyway. Shall we say pistols at dawn?

Ah, well. Sorry you find looking for goodness to be annoying and self-righteous. Doesn't sound like a happy outlook. (Hey, I just concern-trolled a troll!)

I'm curious what makes me a troll. Is it due to my point of view or how I express it?

It's not about who thought or didn't think of this sort of thing before. It's who's doing it now, and who's doing it better. And yes, a lot of us are annoying, self-righteous sons-of-bitch. (I won't flatter myself to take on the description "younger.")

Even though I am a Christian, I almost always avoid "Christian" movies, books, etc. Even though I may agree with 90% of what they say, the preachiness makes it tedious to listen to. No wonder it makes other people even more averse to it.

WHY IS IT BOTHERSOME FOR PEOPLE TO USE ALL CAPS? In speech, loudness can be physically annoying, but I've never seen any research to indicate that the mere sight of upper case letters causes some adverse neurological reaction. The reason all-caps is annoying is that it implies that the person being addressed is somehow unwilling or incapable of comprehending what is being said without sustained additional emphasis. (Note: people who actually disagree aren't going to change their minds BECAUSE A POINT HAS BEEN MADE WITH MORE EMPHASIS!!!!!!)
People who already agree don't need to be nagged, and people who disagree will need some alternative approach since the current approach is clearly ineffective.

But overall I like what's happening among the "woke." I'll tell you something I learned from this fora:

I used to make fun of the convention of naming the indigenous peoples of the land from where you happen to be speaking when giving a presentation or a speech, for example. It seemed to me to be a performance of concern and righteousness--"virtue-signaling," if you will. Someone on the fora gave an example of an indigenous representative who expressed sincere gratitude for the naming. The act of naming and acknowledging truly meant something to that person.

At the very least, it's much more important to know how the majority of people in that community feel about it. (For example, most Black people don't agree with "defund the police", and most people of Latin American descent don't like the term LatinX. Using those terms is more for the benefit of the person saying it than for the people they are supposedly "supporting".)

What an amazing example of what we human beings can do for each other! And who's making an effort to do that? Who is trying to make that kind of behavior the norm rather than an exception?

So what kind of disrespectful behaviour is the norm? (See above for the point about what the majority of a community prefers. Something that is not the preference of the majority cannot logically have its absence considered disrespectful.)

[jimbogumbo]

Then we've got things like the democratic party and media depicting candidate Herschel Walker, who is a highly accomplished athlete and community leader, as a dim-witted guy who doesn't have the IQ to understand the issues, just to appeal to the racism of their white voting base.

What progress?

(Walker is running for GA Senate. I realize the thread is about a poll among Canadians. But I am calling progressive wokeism a phenomenon that spans across borders.)

I'm calling it. This comment is complete BS, so I think you've lost it.

C'mon Professor. You don't have to take it so hard. Reverend Warnock preaches that it's time for good Christians to go to church and confess their original sin of racism. Redemption awaits you!

I wasn't touting the virtues of Rev. Warnock. I was disputing your loony take on Herschel Walker. You really don't know anything about him, do you?

[mahagonny]

Walker has seemed like a pleasant fellow and had a good idea of and respect for what Americans are concerned about. But I'll admit lately it strikes me: he seems way too happy to be living in the United States, given that his skin color is not like mine. This would be a worrying sign if it were true. I'll keep following.

[Kron3007]

Unsurprisingly I think that:

Apparently wider society is just not as enlightened as the academic world and the government, despite our vigorous efforts to improve them.

"The National Post cites Jack Jedwab, president and CEO of the ACS, as saying Canadians need more guidance from academics and policymakers about the language changes, including information on what these terms mean and why it is important to understand their use."

Of course he does. If he isn't there to change something, who needs him? Government bureaucracy is a self-regenerating plague.

Too misquote Yogi Berra, if people don't want to announce their preferred pronouns, you can't stop them.

I do include my preferred pronouns they/them/theirs for work related emails but never outside of teaching work or the campus email servers.

I don't know.  I thing society is progressing quite quick, it is just a demographic issue.  I live in a small town with big trucks, and my children live in a much more progressive world than you would imagine, probably more progressive than my university bubble in the nearby city.

Just as my grandparents seem very racist from my generational perspective, similar is true of us to our children.  It is quite good to see.

How are BIPOC people better off because of this progress?

Sorry, I should have said my grandparents were extremely homophobic rather than racist (they were both).  The two often move in tandem...